Xoriat & the Far Realm?

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by CliveDauthi:

Was reading up on the Far Realm and realized it sounds a lot like            

Xoriat.

Is there any official connection? Or is Xoriat the equivalent of the Far Realms in Eberron?

There are many similarities it seems; Xoriat is a realm of many layers where things exist within all of them at the same time; The Far Realms is a realm of mostly jelly like composition.

Each has huge monsters, each is connected to madness.

The big difference is the Xoriat has the Daelkyr which are humanoid and lead an invasion; I don’t think there is a Far Realms equal to that (I know there are mutant god-like beings in the Far Realm though (the 9 tongued worm being one if I remember correctly)

So, any links?

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by darkwarlock:

 Or is Xoriat the equalivant of the Far Realms in Eberron?

This. Eberron's cosmology differs somewhat from the baseline of D&D 4E, but Xoriat is Eberron's Far Realm.


Originally posted by Madfox11:

The big difference is the Xoriat has the Daelkyr which are humanoid and lead an invasion; I don’t think there is a Far Realms equal to that (I know there are mutant god-like beings in the Far Realm though (the 9 tongued worm being one if I remember correctly)

Effectively the same place. Note that in other settings there are aberrations working to invade the normal world, whether mind flayers, aboleths or other sinister beings (there are some stats for these in the various 4e monster books).

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

I've been off the boards for a few weeks. People have already said it, but Xoriat is Eberron's counterpart to the Far Realms. You might want to look at the Eberron Expanded article discussing the Lords of Madness sourcebook.

One point I'll make is that the daelkyr aren't the biggest, baddest things in Xoriat. They are simply the biggest, baddest things that have any interest in messing around with other worlds. When it comes to their humanoid form, here's a few of my thoughts...

Not all daelkyr look alike. The suggestion in the ECG is a suggestion; it's a place to start. By comparison, Kyrzin is made out of slime & partially digested body parts. Among other things, I don't think a daelkyr will maintain it's Eberron-Form if it returns to Xoriat; I feel that it is a shape it takes to interact with Eberron, partially influenced by those it is interacting with. It looks humanoid because it's here to destroy humanoids. One possibility is that its form is also partially an illusion drawn from the mind of the viewer. YOU see it as a weirdly angelic human; a hobgoblin might see it as a weirdly angelic hobgoblin. it's the Vorlon effect.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by adunn561:

On the topic of the Daelkyr, how do they scale in power to the other threats to Eberron. In my campaign, the main villain is the overlord Katashka but one of my players asked to be a child of a Daelkyr (she's new to Eberron so she thought this would be good for roleplaying so I allowed it.) As a result, I am building up the Daelkyr as a secondary threat who may be trying to use the heroes to escape their prisons. (Under the "the overlords are bigger threats then we are, let's team up.") I've also decided that one of the NPC's they've been dealing with is the avatar of one of the Daelkyr. The problem is I don't know enough about the Daelkyr for them to work. My three main questions are as such:
1. How "human" are the Daelkyr emotionally? The handbooks state that they are usually neutral evil. While I consider them to be part of a squabbling family (willing to go out of their way to annoy one another but ultimately on the same side) I don't know how far they would go in terms of honoring agreements and helping out offspring.
2. Which of the Daelkyr would be most likely to produce offspring (either actually related or as a favorite creation)? What would their relationship with their child be?
3. How high is the Daelkyr threat level compared to the overlords? They are a little difficult to use in a campaign as the main villains because they are not as strong, manipulative, or great in number as the overlords and horror is difficult to pull off without visual aid. Is there anything that would place the Daelkyr on the same playing field as the overlords or the Dreaming Dark?
Thanks for the help!

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by AvonRekaes:

Hello Adunn,

Sounds like you have some interesting ideas! So, going by 3.5 mechanics, an Overlord like Katashka is the equivalent to a Lesser God with a Divine Rank of about 5. So let's say Overlords = Vecna.

Next on the list would be the Daelkyr Generals, the few named ones we have, like Dyrn the Corruptor, Belashyrra, or Kryzn. They're powerful outsiders with specific abilities and focuses above and beyond a standard Daelkyr, like Demon Princes and Archdevils are above normal fiends. So let's say Named Daelkyr = Orcus, in terms of power.

Regular Daelkyr, the unnamed "shock troop" basic member of their race, is a CR 20 evil outsider. So Unnamed Daelkyr = Balor.

On the topic of offspring or Avatars of Daelkyr, have you seen the Daelkyr Half-Blood from the Magic of Eberron sourcebook? Instead of being a literal descendant of a Daelkyr, Half-Bloods are the product of a pregnant woman's unborn child becoming corrupted in an area "tainted" by the Daelkyr's presence. There's nothing that implies the Daelkyr produce any differently with humans as other outsiders would, but.. well...

This leads me (finally) to your first bullet point. 1) How human are they? Well, but in my sole opinion, I like to keep Daelkyr far more alien than you describe. In my mind, all Daelkyr are genderless neuters, who just LOOK male. They are from a reality that is utterly alien to ours. I don't think of them as any kind of family at all. I prefer to make them as inhuman and utterly incomprehensible as my feeble human and comprehensible mind can imagine them. I usually do this by planning none of their actions ahead of time if I know the players are going to be interacting with them. Mind flayers are the easier to comprehend, they were once made from humanoid stock. Mind Flayers can make alliances of convenience, they can squabble with other cults, they can make deals. Daelkyr just give no comprehensible thought to anything. They just DO.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by adunn561:

Thanks for the help! Your input is greatly appreciated! That said I still have to know how to make them a threat comparable to the overlords. I am planing to continue using the Eberron campaign setting after I am done with this adventure and I'd like to have a kind of a sequel showing the repercussions of freeing the Daelkyr. They appear to have some sort of artistic bent (albeit the kind you could only get by fusing a mad scientist and Vincent Van Gogh) that implies that they must at least have some things in common with humanity. Personally I was thinking as them more like Nyarlathotep from the Cthulhu mythos: Ancient and ultimately unknowable but also capable of understanding humans on an individual level (though Nyarlathotep is the last kind of person you'd want being capable of figuring people out.) How can I incorporate both a sense that they can understand humans yet still be Lovecraftian in nature. Currently I am playing with the idea that all the "far-realms" are actually the same place and that the Daelkyr are actually fragments of the aforementioned Nyarlathotep who have somehow gained their own will. The only real alien feature I've given to one of the Daelkyr is his (it's) tendency to view people based on their intellect and/or relevance to it's plans. It tends to shower gifts and compliments on the wizard and warlord but is very disdainful of the party's fighter and barbarian. If anyone could grant some insight, I'd be greatly appreciative!

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by EnderXenocide0:

Here's my two cents:

If you want to make the Daelkyr threats like the Overlords... then do so. The CR 20 stats for them are just combat statistics, but you can alter them. Make them stronger as you see fit. The Overlords, ultimately, can't be destroyed. You can defeat them repeatedly, but they'll just keep coming back, unless you imprison them. Do you want the Daelkyr to be that big of a threat? Or do you just want there to be clear consequences to their release? If it's the latter, then consider that the last time they were free, they were leading an invasion from Xoriat. It was the Gatekeepers throwing Xoriat out of orbit and the seals imprisoning the remaining Daelkyr that stopped this invasion. Should Xoriat be brought back into orbit and the seals broken, it's certainly possible they'd pick up right where they left off.

OR. Here's a wild thought.

What if they want something else? I tend to treat Daelkyr as both Lovecraftian horrors and mad scientists. Aberrations exist because the Daelkyr started messing with science. And they don't really seem to care about getting out of Khyber. So maybe their motives are different than the Overlords. What if, instead, this is all one big scientific experiment? I couldn't tell you what. I might consider the Husk of Infinite Worlds applied to the fiendish things found down in Khyber. Anyway, that's another route if you want them to be a threat, but don't want it to be as straight-forward as "release = destruction".

ADDENDUM: If you do the non-destruction threat, you could play it up like there's going to be a big disaster if they're released, but when they inevitably are released... nothing happens... at first. But something is clearly wrong. Maybe a virus starts spreading and people start turning into aberrations. Or people start having flashes and visions of Xoriat, slowly driving them mad. You can treat the ultimate threat of the Daelkyr as highly Lovecraftian, while keeping the more humanizing elements if you want.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Napolean_Warlord:

I've been running the "Madness" series from Dungeon as a plot by Daelkyr to use the Tear of Ioun + a constructed "Orrery" as a device to broadcast an effect across space to turn everyone into abberations for their own good.

Its a neat multi-level plot with opportunities to gradually escalate your situation from a localized effect of releasing certain bad eggs to a "world ending" catastrophe that must be stopped at all costs.  Can't wait till Sharn gets hit by the trial runs of the doomsday device... there will be a remedy, but it will dramatically reshape the campaign.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by darkwarlock:

Which adventures are the "Madness series"?


Originally posted by Napolean_Warlord:

Which adventures are the "Madness series"?

Here's a link to the Dungeon adventure that starts the series of 3.

Touch of Madness, by Robert J. Schwalb

Its pretty good - decent mix of social and death march, altho the death marching gets a bit overdone at times (lots of encounters - I had to cut some otherwise it would take too many sessions to advance the plot) 

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

I've been away at GenCon and dealing with other things, but a few quick thoughts. Bear in mind that there are no right answers: I'm telling you what *I* do, but you may want to go an entirely different way.

1. How "human" are the Daelkyr emotionaly? While I consider them to be part of a squabling family...

In my opinion, the daelkyr are the least human and least comprehensible of all the forces on Eberron. The overlords are godlike beings, but they are incarnations of concepts that shape our lives. They are concretely of our world. Likewise, the Quori are alien, but they inhabit a world shaped by our dreams and we can generally understand the way that they think. The Daelkyr come from a realm of madness, a world we cannot comprehend. We know that they attacked us and would have destroyed our world. But was that an invasion? An experiment? A work of art? Are they soldiers, scientists, artists, or all three? Do they even care that they've been imprisoned, or are they simply biding their time, secure that they will eventually be free again?

The Lords of Dust are definitely a "squabbling family" who were defeated because they wouldn't work together. The Dreaming Dark is essentially an army, with a strict hierarchy united towards one common goal. In my opinion the Daelkyr are neither. We literally can't TELL if they are working together, working at cross purposes, or don't even care what the others do. When they invaded, they DID employ armies and act in an organized fashion, so they are capable of it. But right now... are they working towards a common goal we simply don't understand? Or feuding? To me, the one reliable thing about the Daelkyr should be that almost nothing about them is reliable. Not because they are chaotic, but because we simply don't understand their behavior.

Take note of what I wrote earlier in this thread. In my opinion, there is nothing human about the Daelkyr. We tend to see them as human because WE are human. Other species will see them in different ways. The very presence of a daelkyr causes madness, and their "appearance" is simply the result of our brains trying to impose some sort of comprehensible shape on them. 

Which of the Daelkyr would be most likely to produce offspring (either actually related or as a favorite creation)? What would their relationship with their child be?

A Daelkyr half-breed won't be the literal result of intercourse with a Daelkyr, because as noted there's nothing remotely human about a Daelkyr. Instead, it's going to be the result of magic. The Daelkyr warp flesh and create living weapons. As noted above, it should be hard to know WHY a daelkyr has a "child". Is it a new kind of weapon made to help free the Daelkyr or destroy their enemies? Is an experiment - the first of a new line of servitors that might eventually be mass-produced, like Dolgaunts or mind flayers? Is it a unique work of art made purely for art's sake? The answer to this question will help determine the nature of the relationship - though I would be inclined to think that the "child" should never be entirely sure of the fact. Look to the story "The Dunwich Horror" (which you should definitely read, if you haven't already done so). Wilbur knows his purpose... but how well does he really know his father? Does he REALLY know what will happen if he comes through?

How high is the Daelkyr threat level compared to the overlords? They are a little difficult to use in a campaign as the main villains because they are not as strong, manipulative, or great in number as the overlords...

A few things...

* The Daelkyr are as powerful as you want them to be. As noted, the Daelkyr in the book is a "lieutenant". The generals - Belashyrra, Dyrrn the Corrupter, Kyrzin - could be far more powerful if you'd like. With that said...

* The Daelkyr ARE generals. Part of their power is their army. Not only do they have uncounted hordes of aberrations, they make those aberrations from you. The first dolgaunts were hobgoblins; the first dolgrims were goblins. If the daelkyr are truly unleashed and Xoriat is aligned with Eberron, you aren't just fighting an army, you are fighting madness made manifest. They will turn your flesh and your mind against you. They will make monsters of your friends. This isn't simply about some encounter power or spell-like ability; these powers will operate on a vast scale (though player characters may be more resistant than most).

* As for numbers, the Daelkyr and their forces can be as numerous as you want. Who KNOWS how many mind flayers are down in the darkness? Who knows what far more horrible things they have created over millenia of imprisonment? And again, if they are restored to full power, they will turn your allies into their creatures - or maybe just drive them mad so you have no choice but to kill them before they kill you.

... horror is difficult to pull off without visual aid.

The things that are truly terrifying about the Daelkyr aren't really visual in nature. Looking at a few points...

We don't understand them. We don't know what they want. We don't know why they are doing what they're doing. Do we even KNOW how to hurt them? Do we really understand the full extent of their powers - or do they have abilities we don't even realize? More than any other creature, the Daelkyr are the beings who may break the rules - who don't respond to magic the way you expect, who do things the rules shouldn't allow. Because they simply don't belong here... whereas by contrast, the Overlords are part of our world.

They can turn everything you love against you. They corrupt both thoughts and flesh. They can infect you, change you into something you recognize. They can twist your thoughts until you don't even know what reality is. The Dreaming Dark will manipulate you, but they will do it in a logical way with a goal you can understand. The Daelkyr will simply take you and change you, leave scars that will never heal, and you may never understand why. Even if they don't touch you, they may destroy anything you care about. And how can you fight what you don't understand?

The horror of the Daelkyr isn't the icky armor and the tongueworms. It's the fact that once they sink their tendrils in your brain, you will never be the same - and you may never even know what they have done. Have they planted mental maggots in your mind that will hatch any day now and consume you? Have they changed your perceptions so you can no longer see or hear your worst enemies... or made it so those around you hear your secret thoughts whispered in their brains? If they've done any of these things, is there anything you can do to stop it?

I could go on, but I have a plane to catch - I hope this gives you some ideas.