Would evasion help low CR monsters against a high level party?

[Yavathol]

I was thinking about the problems of getting low CR monsters to still be a threat to the PCs as they reach higher levels..

Warriors are limited in the number of creatures they can kill each round, since they only have 3-4 attacks each round. Ok, so they probably will hit and kill an orc with each attack, but if there is a group of 20 or so, the orcs will probably still get a few hits in, because of bounded accuracy, especially if they can pull a few tricks like the famous "Tucker's kobolds" and get advantage.

The problem is that any area of effect spellcasters will wipe out large numbers of the monsters before they can close. Giving them advantage on their saves wouldn't help because half damage would probably still kill them..

So what I'd like your opinion on is, how about an Evade Action (which theoretically anyone could use) that allows you to take no damage if you are affected by a "save for half damage" effect before the start of your next turn.

Would this be too effective in allowing PCs to shrug off Dragon breath attacks? Is it too overpowered for the monsters maybe, too unfair to the spellcasters who use a spell slot to no effect?
Are there better ways to help a group of monsters survive the artillery long enough to get into melee?

 

[Alexemplar]

You could use the old 3e style of Evasion where a successful save gives no damage but a failed save still makes them take damage. IMPROVED evasion gave half damage on a failed save and none on a successful one. 5e turned Imrpoved Evasion into regular Evasion.

So you can have a lesser (original) version called Lesser Evasion.

 

[Oofta]

Why are the orcs charging directly into the line of fire?

There are a lot of ways to kill a spellcaster. The top 10 off the top of my head?

1. Spread out and approach from all sides
2. Send in the goblins to take the brunt of the attacks, have the rest charge in the second (or third or fourth) round. If the caster sets up something like a wall of fire, just wait them out
3. Use ranged attacks
4. Have one orc firing an arrow - as soon as he's done he drops prone and a second orc covers them both with a heavy tarp providing cover
5. Have them carry over-sized shields as they approach, when they see the caster wiggling their fingers, they drop to the ground and hide under the shield (similar to the last one but with a move and readied action)
6. Dig tunnels
7. Siege engines.
8. Orcish tanks, something like this.
9. Snipe and harass, never letting them sleep.
10. Cause a cave-in to trap them (indirect attack)

Ultimately the goal is to not face the wizard head on in an open battlefield. Much like it was semi-suicidal to charge into machine gun fire, letting a wizard fireball more than a handful of orcs is not good strategy.

 

[Nevvur]

Unless it interferes with your story for some reason, I don't see the problem with spellcasters wiping out large numbers of monsters at once. It's part of the appeal of certain spellcasters, and introducing a house rule to subvert it seems unfun to me. If it were important to me that the CR monsters survive longer than a round, I would explore standard options before introducing new ones which, as you speculate, could have repercussions on other areas of gameplay.

One option would be to grant monsters maximum HP instead of average. Probably still not enough for an orcs vs fireball situation, but it's a start. Oofta's tactical suggestions can go a long way toward extending the mooks' survivability and threat, especially #1 and #3.

Question - is this a problem for you, or a problem for the players? If your non-casters are complaining about feeling useless in horde situations, I think the problem bears further consideration. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Let the wizards wiz and the sorcerers sorce.

 

[cbwjm]

I'd say let the party spellcaster wipe out large swathes of orcs with AoE spells, it's part of the experience of levelling up that enemies which were once a threat are now less so. Making them take reduced damage just to reduce the effectiveness of the casters is a little harsh. Instead, I'd have regular orcs, the rank and file (or screaming horde), and a few high level leaders from the books or even 1 or two that have a few more hit dice. Diversify the enemy combatants but keep those low-level minions.

 

[Tony Vargas]

. Giving them advantage on their saves wouldn't help because half damage would probably still kill them..

So what I'd like your opinion on is, how about an Evade Action (which theoretically anyone could use) that allows you to take no damage if you are affected by a "save for half damage" effect before the start of your next turn.

It'd be simpler to just give 'em the equivalent of 3e Evasion, on a successful save, no damage. You could limit it to un-injured targets who would be killed by outright (double max hps) on a failed save by average damage, that way, no need to roll or track damage, just save or die.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I was thinking about the problems of getting low CR monsters to still be a threat to the PCs as they reach higher levels..

Um...huh?

This is, to me, like a boxing ref asking how he can ref a match between a group of "[belt weight] Champions", and folks who box only for health benefits, to make it so the (very) amateurs can have a chance against the belt champions. Or how to tweak the rules of Chess so that newbs can have a chance against grand-masters. Or any other extreme example of the sort.

High level PC's SHOULD pretty much wipe the floor with any 'low level/power' monsters who aren't stacking the deck in their favour, so to speak.

Warriors are limited in the number of creatures they can kill each round, since they only have 3-4 attacks each round. Ok, so they probably will hit and kill an orc with each attack, but if there is a group of 20 or so, the orcs will probably still get a few hits in, because of bounded accuracy, especially if they can pull a few tricks like the famous "Tucker's kobolds" and get advantage.

Yup...that'd be one way, the whole "stacking the deck" thing I mentioned.

The problem is that any area of effect spellcasters will wipe out large numbers of the monsters before they can close. Giving them advantage on their saves wouldn't help because half damage would probably still kill them..

I still honestly don't see the problem with this...but...

So what I'd like your opinion on is, how about an Evade Action (which theoretically anyone could use) that allows you to take no damage if you are affected by a "save for half damage" effect before the start of your next turn.

Would this be too effective in allowing PCs to shrug off Dragon breath attacks? Is it too overpowered for the monsters maybe, too unfair to the spellcasters who use a spell slot to no effect?
Are there better ways to help a group of monsters survive the artillery long enough to get into melee?

I wouldn't do it that way. I'd go down the route of "swarm tactics HP stuff n' things". For my "Top Secret/S.I. : Zombocolypse" rules/campaign I ran a year or so ago, I had the zombies have their "hit points" be, average, 10. A PC attacked individual zombies only if there were less than 6 of them. As soon as 6+ zombies were in the 'area' (a vague term), it was simply a method of taking the damage the PC did, and for every FULL 10 points, one zombie went down; excess damage was ignored. So if a PC started swinging for the fences with his nail-infused baseball bat and did 37 points of damage...he takes out 3 zombies; the other 7 points are ignored.

For high-level vs low-power monsters, I'd use something similar...but make sure to multiply the number of baddies by like, 5, 10, 20 or a hundred. "You kick in the double doors and see a huge room, about 600' by 1000' with 20' or 30' high ceilings. A good, oh, 200 orcs lets say. The ones near you snarl, grab their weapons and move to attack. Roll initiative". Then, as they start attacking, I simply reduce the total number of orcs based on damage done vs each's HP. So, that 3-4 attack fighter makes his first attack, and does 33. Each orc has, say, 10hp. He takes out 3 with that ONE attack. He gets another, and does 37...so another 3 drop. Last attack, he gets a crit and does 70; he takes out 7 more. So, 13 orcs drop...leaving 183 left. He is standing in the 'open'...so I simply roll 6 attacks against the fighter. Did he kill everything around him? Probably...and probably had to move around a bit to take out all 13...and, likewise, the orcs aren't just standing there; they are moving too.

Bottom line...sure, the PC's are taking about 25 to 30 orcs per round...but for those "5 to 10 rounds", each PC is likely getting attacked MULTIPLE times, as they are surrounded.

Still...I'd just leave it as is. High level PC's SHOULD be doing ridiculous things, like casting a spell and taking out a couple dozen goblins. There are more than enough mid to high power monsters to keep the PC's on their toes...let the players feel like the bad mo-fo's they are.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Yavathol]

Some great suggestions there, thanks guys!

At the moment this isn't a problem, but I thought one of the design aims for 5e was to make it so that low CR monsters could still be used at higher levels; maybe that was dropped at some point during development. It would certainly help with the verisimilitude where initially towns get threatened by orcs and guards are low level, and that gradually changes until towns are threatened by, I dunno, giants, the guards are mid level and there's not an orc or bugbear in sight!

My experience so far has been with Storm Kings Thunder when fighting the Uthgardt, so the PCs aren't particularly high level.

I think I'll try the 3e style Evasion as several people suggested. I don't particularly like giving Orcs and Uthgardt special rules and equipment like large shields and tarps; they're not expecting to be attacked by a wizard. The Evade attack option is intended to partially simulate using anything to hand as cover, while still having some cost, since they can't Dodge as well.

And sauce for the goose.. Seems less unfair if the PCs have that option as well?

Thinking about it overnight, spells like sleep still take monsters out of the fight instantly, there's probably others I haven't thought of..

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Some great suggestions there, thanks guys!

At the moment this isn't a problem, but I thought one of the design aims for 5e was to make it so that low CR monsters could still be used at higher levels; maybe that was dropped at some point during development. It would certainly help with the verisimilitude where initially towns get threatened by orcs and guards are low level, and that gradually changes until towns are threatened by, I dunno, giants, the guards are mid level and there's not an orc or bugbear in sight!

Bounded accuracy is still a design goal, and was never dropped. Those orcs aren't going to need natural 20s to hit all the party members, even with ranged attacks.

Bounded accuracy doesn't, and isn't intended to, address what happens when low-level monsters clump together into the radius of AoE spells cast by high-level characters.

 

[schnee]

At the moment this isn't a problem, but I thought one of the design aims for 5e was to make it so that low CR monsters could still be used at higher levels; maybe that was dropped at some point during development. It would certainly help with the verisimilitude where initially towns get threatened by orcs and guards are low level, and that gradually changes until towns are threatened by, I dunno, giants, the guards are mid level and there's not an orc or bugbear in sight!

100 Orcs wouldn't make a 3E mid-level party break a sweat. In 5E, even 10-15 going down per round is still going to result in a party being turned into javelin pin-cushions, swarmed and wrestled to the ground, disarmed, captured, and eaten...unless their tactics are sound, spellcasters use a TON of spells, players use cover effectively, the fighters take a lot of damage in hand-to-hand, etcetera.

In other words, IMO it's still a viable encounter for the party. In the wrong place or time, i.e. without cover or choke points, it's still a high potential to total party kill even if many Orcs die. A DM has to be really careful here, the action economy gets out of hand quickly.

To your verisimilitude point, in towns, I'd run that encounter with a huge number of Orcs hurling javelins at Disadvantage against a smaller number of defenders. I think the results will be surprising.