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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9140754" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>Sure, but that is true regardless of whether my Rogue has a higher Charisma than you or not.</p><p></p><p>Unless your social contract is such that each class has a defined role then it is irrelevant whether my Rogue is the face or your Paladin is. And I have never played at a 5E table where roles were decided based on class. That was true to a degree in 1E, due to very restrictive class mechanics, but not 5E.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Extreme outliers" or more accurately non-stereotype builds are the whole point here!</p><p></p><p>I never said "most" Wizards don't have a low strength or a high Aracana. I said some Wizards don't.</p><p></p><p>Outliers are the point. If they exist at all, you are as a point of fact wrong.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To start with 1st level characters will not survive 6 medium combats in a day getting attacked every round. I know that is the "standard day", but mathematically that will usually result in a TPK at 1st level if you follow this forumla unless you go with single monsters (in which case you are not usually getting attacked). Further based on the XPs, the party will hit 2nd level before 6 combats unless those first 6 combats are all medium and easy. That presumes you get no out of combat XP over that time as well.</p><p></p><p>That said, mathematically it 3 shields absolutely worth more. The difference in hit points is 4. The difference in hit points including the hit dice you roll with a short rest is on average 6. Causing 3 misses with shield (even if it only causes 1 miss each time) is going to average more than 6 hit points at 1st level.</p><p></p><p>Also if this 6 hit points is really that relevant (which it isn't), keep in mind the Wizard has 3 spell slots. She can just cast false life before 3 of those fights and then she has a whopping 17 more total hps as the fighter or more than twice as many. If the difference in hit points were really that important .... which it isn't.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Rarely, and I would say a single casting stops 2+ hits more often than it stops zero hit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That depends entirely on Dexterity and what Armor the fighter is wearing. Typically he will have a higher AC (at 1st level). I will agree with that. I do not agree that it will typically be more effective than the shield spell in protecting him from going down at 1st level.</p><p></p><p>Earlier when you inclorrectly assumed the Wizard should use weapons he was proficient in you said <em>"The little extra to hit is not going to be noticeable in combat. +2 is 2 extra hits out of 20 swings." </em>Now all of a sudden that extra 2 points or 3 points on the enemies attacks is huge?</p><p></p><p>If you were talking about a Sword and Board you would have a point, you would be quite a bit more survivable in combat, but you threw out the Greatsword as your fighter's weapon and if we reevaluated this with a Sword and Board and a 1d8, the fighter would be way behind in damage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No "far more" likely. He has 4 fewer hit points (or on average 3.5 more if he cast false life before the combat)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>On average he gets back 2 less hit points per day from short resting. That is an average and it can vary in both directions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9140754, member: 7030563"] Sure, but that is true regardless of whether my Rogue has a higher Charisma than you or not. Unless your social contract is such that each class has a defined role then it is irrelevant whether my Rogue is the face or your Paladin is. And I have never played at a 5E table where roles were decided based on class. That was true to a degree in 1E, due to very restrictive class mechanics, but not 5E. "Extreme outliers" or more accurately non-stereotype builds are the whole point here! I never said "most" Wizards don't have a low strength or a high Aracana. I said some Wizards don't. Outliers are the point. If they exist at all, you are as a point of fact wrong. To start with 1st level characters will not survive 6 medium combats in a day getting attacked every round. I know that is the "standard day", but mathematically that will usually result in a TPK at 1st level if you follow this forumla unless you go with single monsters (in which case you are not usually getting attacked). Further based on the XPs, the party will hit 2nd level before 6 combats unless those first 6 combats are all medium and easy. That presumes you get no out of combat XP over that time as well. That said, mathematically it 3 shields absolutely worth more. The difference in hit points is 4. The difference in hit points including the hit dice you roll with a short rest is on average 6. Causing 3 misses with shield (even if it only causes 1 miss each time) is going to average more than 6 hit points at 1st level. Also if this 6 hit points is really that relevant (which it isn't), keep in mind the Wizard has 3 spell slots. She can just cast false life before 3 of those fights and then she has a whopping 17 more total hps as the fighter or more than twice as many. If the difference in hit points were really that important .... which it isn't. Rarely, and I would say a single casting stops 2+ hits more often than it stops zero hit. That depends entirely on Dexterity and what Armor the fighter is wearing. Typically he will have a higher AC (at 1st level). I will agree with that. I do not agree that it will typically be more effective than the shield spell in protecting him from going down at 1st level. Earlier when you inclorrectly assumed the Wizard should use weapons he was proficient in you said [I]"The little extra to hit is not going to be noticeable in combat. +2 is 2 extra hits out of 20 swings." [/I]Now all of a sudden that extra 2 points or 3 points on the enemies attacks is huge? If you were talking about a Sword and Board you would have a point, you would be quite a bit more survivable in combat, but you threw out the Greatsword as your fighter's weapon and if we reevaluated this with a Sword and Board and a 1d8, the fighter would be way behind in damage. No "far more" likely. He has 4 fewer hit points (or on average 3.5 more if he cast false life before the combat) On average he gets back 2 less hit points per day from short resting. That is an average and it can vary in both directions. [/QUOTE]
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