Why THAT change? (gnome bard)

[The Spectrum Rider]

I know this has been discussed at length, but I wanted to weigh in.

Of all the 3.5 changes I've read about, the only one that seems completely unmotivated and counterintutive - one that doesn't seem to have any reason behind it - is the decision to change the gnome's favored class from illusionist to bard. What problem is being solved here? Exactly whose complaint is being answered?

Most of the defenses of this change seem to have to form of "you know, bards can be very illusionist-like if they want to be - even more so in 3.5!" Which strikes me as a little circular. Yes, bards can get illusion spells, and do some tricky things. But that's even more true of illusionists, isn't it?

To me, the cognitive dissonance comes down to this: in the 2nd edition we had the gnome race. And we had the bard class. And gnomes weren't even ALLOWED to be bards! Now, I have no objection to gnomish bards, and under 3rd-edition rules they make as much sense as halfling monks, half-orc wizards, and all the rest. But when exactly did being a bard become the natural thing for gnomes? Have gomes changed so much from the 2nd edition? Have bards?

In addition, I always thought of gnomes as a somewhat secretive and clannish race - not quite the bardish type that, say, a half-elf would be.

I wouldn't mind if illusionsists (and the other specialists, for that matter) were given a little more flavor - some additional appropriate class skills (like Bluff), or some specially designed feats for them to choose. But to change the gnome's favored class this way strikes me as being completely from out in left field.

The Spectrum Rider

 

[Nifft]

Here's the issue as I see it: Gnomes are trixy little Fey-ish critters. Bards are a better match for "trixy Fey-ish" than Illusionists are.

Also, from a mechanics standpoint, Elves have all Wizardly classes as Favored. Gnomes are quite mechanically limited in comparison. Having Bard as a Favored Class fills in a hole in the Favored Class distribution, and promotes Gnomes from being too far in the shadow of the Elves.

-- Nifft

 

[Sejs]

-Bards are knowledgeable as all get-go (all knowledge skills as class skills, 6+ int mod skill points in 3.5, bardic knowledge ability, not to mention a really beefy class skill list). This fits better with the ideal of gnomes as wise, knowledgeable tricksters, in my oppinion. The kind of people who know the answer to where the Secret Tome of Rumu'ul lies, but you'd have to win that knowledge from them first. Particularly the higher skill points are a nice way to make 'em know more without resorting back to the old racial int bonus.

-Bards are charisma-based spell casters. This is more in line with a gnome's natural spell-like abilities. Magic is something they more manipulate intuitivly than have to study hard to grasp.

-Bards spell lists are focused almost entirely around three schools of magic: Enchantment, Illusion, and Divination with some flavor spells from other schools also tossed in. Again, very well in keeping with the old magical trickster/illusionist yet knows all sorts of things ideal.

-Bards do not totally suck b*lls in combat if it comes to that. 3/4 Ba, d6 HD, some weapon and armor proficiencies, good ref and will saves. This keeps well with both a gnome's pseudo-dwarven connection and the fact that gnomes, like dwarves recieve a racial bonus to attack (vs. goblinoids and kobolds) and dodge (vs giants) - that comes from training. Kind of hard to explain why you could have special combat training against certain types of foes your people commonly fight.. and still be a limp noodle if any actual fighting takes place.



I (still) think that Bard as a favored class fits quite nicely with gnomes. Even moreso than Wizard/Illusionist did.

 

[Trellian]

Illusionist will still be a gnomes favored class in my campaign.. this is just bull..

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I think that it's merely a way to expand demihuman multiclass options. If you want to play a multiclass wizard, you've already got elves. Same for fighters and dwarves, half-orcs and barbarians, etc. But if you want to be a multiclass bard, you're either human or half-elf. Now you can be a gnome, too. And wizards can still play elves.

 

[Trellian]

I can understand the way they are thinking, but it doesn't make sense either way. Anyway, of the 120 characters I've DM'ed, only 1 have played a gnome, so its not going to be an issue for me anyway.

 

[Darklone]

I like it.

 

[Zhure]

I'm with Darklone, I like it.

Bards are already better illusionists than illusionists, at least until about 8-10th level. If the Bard's spell list gets some tweaking, like access to all the illusion spells (likely), or a change when their spell lists grant them access (unlikely), then Gnome Bards will behave mechanically a lot like Gnome Fighter-Bards, only with more skills and slightly lower hit points.

For those who remain Gnomes as Illusionists fixated, it's a simple rule to implement. The 3.5 rules may say Gnome favored class is either Bard or Illusionist, though that's unlikely.

Greg

 

[BryonD]

Gnomes are supposed to be great at trickery and illusion.

They are NOT supposed to be dorky wizards with stacks of old tomes.

The bard has a very good selection of illusion spells. And they have a vastly superior capacity to fill the classic "trickster" role.

This is a nice change.

Also, it is HIGHLY trivial.

One of the near consensus from 3E was that wizards do not multiclass very efficiently. Yeah, you MIGHT see a gnome illusionist7/rogue2. But not very often. Now that combo will cause a xp penalty (for those people who even bother to impose them). But a rogue ill7/bard2 is almost every bit as good, and for the "trickster" can be even better.

Plus favored class is meaningless to a single class character. With the new +1DC for illusions, a pure gnome illusionist is now BETTER than it was under 3E.

 

[Li Shenron]

Bards are already better illusionists than illusionists, at least until about 8-10th level. If the Bard's spell list gets some tweaking, like access to all the illusion spells (likely), or a change when their spell lists grant them access (unlikely), then Gnome Bards will behave mechanically a lot like Gnome Fighter-Bards, only with more skills and slightly lower hit points.

I was feeling quite the same. Bards are very good Illusionists and now their spell list is expanded too. Wizards still have spells up to 9th level tho.

For those who remain Gnomes as Illusionists fixated, it's a simple rule to implement. The 3.5 rules may say Gnome favored class is either Bard or Illusionist, though that's unlikely.

Well, let's not worry too much about existing characters. Only the dumbest DM is going to tell an existing gnome Ill10/Rog1 that from now on he's going to get 20% Xp penalty because someone suddenly changed his favored class

With the new +1DC for illusions, a pure gnome illusionist is now BETTER than it was under 3E.

Sure?