Why play Werewolf: the Apocalypse?

Mercule

Adventurer
Okay, I openned up my mouth in another thread. Here's what I said:

Mercule said:
I usually sum up Werewolf as "Greenpeace with teeth and claws." The entire game is based on the idea the forces of creation and destruction are completely insane; the scourge of humanity has overstepped its bounds and needs to be culled; cities are scabs that blaspheme Gaia; and the end is coming and the best you can do is delay it a few decades. If you like mindless killing, though, this game isn't bad -- you can be like the Punisher with a Detect Evil spell.

Some people took exception to this assessment, rightfully. It looks like there's the potential for a good, polite discussion on this. Rather than hijack the other thread, I thought I'd start this one.

I called it exactly as I see it, but I'm more than willing to buy into the idea that I've just missed something all this time. No, really. Werewolf is the only WoD game that I've never really wanted to play. With the good company it keeps, I'd love to hear more about why people like it.
 

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If you like the idea of fighting to save nature, Werewolf hits it, if you like fighting against evil corporations, Werewolf hits it, if you like fighting against overwelming odds for the future of the planet, Werewolf hits it, If you like characters who go around hitting things, Werewolf is the best game ever.

We played Werewolf for years, it is great fun, we got into the pack mentality, we enjoyed fighting to save the world even though it was a loosing cause, and the fight mechanics are great. Right out of the box with a newly made character you were a killing machine, combat was always fun. The storyline was interesting and the way White Wolf games work together made for lots of interesting campaigns. The White Wolf world was always interesting wheter it was Vampire, WereWolf or Mage (Wraith and Changling blew). We don't game Werewolf anymore, we just burnt out on it, but we had fun for several years with it.
 

Well, I was invited by name to participate in this thread, so it would be impolite for me to decline.

Disclaimer: I'm the line developer for Werewolf: The Apocalypse, and have been for the past, oh, five, seven years or so? Something like that. So understand that I have a personal bias for Werewolf; it's my day job, and it's the World of Darkness game I like best. On the other hand, I promise I won't freak out if people say it isn't to their taste — like all things RPG, tastes vary.

But that said, here's why I dig Werewolf.

First of all, the game is one of animistic horror. Animism, by the way, is the cultural belief that animals and plants and even sections of countryside have spirits; Shintoism is sort of animistic, if I'm getting the reference right, and lots of cultures have had their start with animistic beliefs. Now, the extrapolation of this concept with the World of Darkness is that if everything has a reflection in the spirit world, and the World of Darkness is more of a hellhole than our own, the spirit world is going to be a dark, dangerous place. This basic concept lays the foundation for a lot of different stories. What would the spirit world be like in the shadow of a concentration camp? A laboratory that counts vivisection and animal experimentation among its tactics? What about in urban sprawl? The animistic angle of the game can really engage a thousand and one stories, played right.

Second, like most WoD games, Werewolf taps into specific cultural references for its feel. Vampire is rooted in Old Testament Biblical stories (twisted around, of course), Mage in philosophy and all kinds of occult legends, and so on. Werewolf draws not just from European legends of werewolves, but also from most shapeshifter myths from around the world — African leopard-men, Japanese fox-women, Polynesian shark-shifters, and so on. But it's also a game about culture heroes like Beowulf, Heracles, and the like. The Nordic influence is pretty strong, too — the "Apocalypse" referenced in the title is more Ragnarok "Final Battle at the End of the Earth" than "world blows up," at least as the protagonists see it. It's very old-school.

Third, Werewolf is a game that really encourages players to work together, to think of themselves as a pack rather than a loose collection of sort of like-minded people. The Garou have a strong culture of their own, and they're social animals. There's plenty of reasons imbedded in the game for characters to not only work together, but to lay down their lives for one another. The werewolves of the WoD are a society that's been fighting a shadow war for years, and there's something about that "soldier" mentality that's rubbed off on their culture.

These three concepts lay the groundwork for a lot of interesting stories, or at least the stories I like. The game does involve a long look at heroism, but the concept of "hero" is pretty open-ended — is a werewolf who'd wipe out a whole town full of people for the "greater good" of preserving the Earth a hero? Is the werewolf who chooses a more humanist philosophy really in the right? Is it right to kill everyone who smells of "the Enemy"; where's the balance between genocidal rampages and standing by and letting evil prosper? There's a lot of philosophy to the game, if you want it — but, as other folks have said, that doesn't preclude action. At the heart of it all, you're a nine-foot killing machine with a heart full of fury who can manage to look human if you want to — but you aren't a human. Nor, necessarily, do you want to be — but that's up to the character and the player in question. If you like those European myths where the werewolves are the baddest things on four legs and humanity cowers in their huts for fear of the Big Bad Wolves, there's plenty of room for doing that in a modern context.

It's a big game, really. I could ramble on until everyone lost complete interest in what I had to say, and I don't know if I could cover it all. There are so many options, and they're often presented in the question of where you want to find your balance. Human or wolf? Flesh or spirit? Warrior or shaman? Tribal feuds or tribal alliances? These aren't binary, yes-or-no questions, and there's just so much room to customize your character and the game around them that it can almost seem like too much.

But that's what I like about D&D, too; you can do so many things well with the general game that you never have to play it exactly the same way twice. The main difference is that Werewolf has a few specific themes built-in; but I think they're pretty cool themes, so that suits me fine.

Sorry for the extensive ramble. Hopefully some other folks will chime in and maybe be a little more succinct (and for the record, fellas, don't think I didn't appreciate your kind words on the other thread. It was very, very gratifying).

And by the way, Mercule, thanks for being open-minded about the whole subject. Even if the game isn't ultimately to your tastes, I hope you can at least see some of the different things that bring other people back for more.
 

The thing that appeals to me most about Werewolf is something that Mark Rein-Hagen mentioned in an older book (Player's or Storyteller's handbook, I believe): faith. Gaian werewolves really believe in their cause, even though most of them know it's a lost one. There's an intensity built into the game from the ground up that makes it unique, and I think that's pretty cool.

I mentioned this in the other thread, but I'll bring it up again here: Werewolf has a very well-developed mythology, and the deeper I've dug into it the more I've enjoyed it.

All of the things I like about other WoD games are present in WW as well: great art, lots of background material and support, easy and robust character generation, etc.

There's more, but that's the succinct answer. ;)
 

I've played in an online MUSH (GarouMUSH; garoumush.org 7000) for about six years years now, and I've played two tabletop games of it.

There is a lot more to it than mindless killing (though mindful killing is a big part of it; Werewolves aren't subtle creatures):

The spirit world
The rituals
Learning about Garou society

Not all garou tribes, of course, beleive in the 'Greenpeace with teeth and claws' method. The Walkers and Gnawers love the cities and technology, and at some of the others can deal with it as well, depending on their elders and pack totem.
 

The entire game is based on the idea the forces of creation and destruction are completely insane; the scourge of humanity has overstepped its bounds and needs to be culled; cities are scabs that blaspheme Gaia; and the end is coming and the best you can do is delay it a few decades.

Point 1: This is true, sort of. I don't see how this is a bad thing, though... it's actualy a very novel concept.

Point 2: False. Some tribes do think that way (Most noteably the Get of Fenris and the Red Talons), but it's not some universal truth. Granted, most shifters (Not just werewolves) do tend to have a major superiority complex with regards to humans, but let's face it... they aren't entirely unjustified to feel that way.

Point 3: Again, false. Again, this is a tribe-by-tribe, species-by-species view. For example, Glass Walker werewolves (Known as Iron Riders during the 1800's, and possibly other names before, I've never looked the Dark Ages stuff) actualy think that cities and technologies are the best hope for gaia, the next natural step in the evolution of the world. They don't feel that technology must represent the destruction of everything else, just a change.

Point 4: Valid, more or less, but this is true of other WW games too, in one form or another.
 

My favorite aspect of the werewolves is inter-tribal relationships and politics (not something you necessarily think of first, but the groundwork is all right there), the various cultures (which borrow a lot from real-world cultures, and what is odd in a game that does so, it offers a good explanation of why) and the spiritual aspect of the game: the faith aspect.

And, in my games, who cares if you are a killing machine next to normal humans? What does that have to do with your prowess against other werewolves, or other supernatural creatures? Mindless killing indeed! Only a poor GM would turn any game into that. D&D certainly is set up to be mindless killing in dungeons, but hardly anyone on this board would agree that that's how they play.
 

While I am not a big Werewolf fan, I have played it and run some cross overs that dealt with werewolves. Here are some "street-level" observations from experiences.

At the simpliest level, Werewolf is the WW game that has some simlarities to most DnD type games. Clear cut bad guys, good guys, lots of combat where you get to be the combat god of your dreams and lots of cool toys. (Changeling has more in common thematicaly with DnD, but it never caught on. My personal guess is that it spread itself to thin trying to be everything to everyone and thus lost too much energy going in circles). So from an introductionary viewpoint, its an easy transisiton.

To delve more into my own experiences, making magic items was fun since it boiled down to role playing how to haggle with the spirit that would fuel the item. One also had to decide which spirit would do the job best and find said spirit in the spirit world. Unless a DnD DM does a lot of his own background world in the synergies of magic, DnD magic is just about math - even in older editions- and I haven't seen many DMs go beyond that.

The mix of the ancient and naturalistic with urban and modern can make for some interesting challenges, monsters and even role playing encounters.

Some of the most twisted monsters I had to face came from Werewolf. Cursed make up bags that made women into succubi, toys that twisted children into pyschos or plauge carriers. Suddenly the "Hack n Slash" of the game had surprising depth since you had to decide how to protect the innocent ... or even deal with the guilt of sacrificing the few for the greater good. Sure you could firebomb that corrupt factory at the south of town, but that means you put your own family out of work.

Another example from my own GM experience, the pack had to find "The bird that nests udner the water." In the end, the players found an enchanted '57 red Thunderbird resting at the bottom of the lake. In mint-condiditon of course. :) The car's power was 1.) able to roam the spirit world and 2.) never need gas. Funny enough, I think the party appreciated No. 2 more.

And even as time went on, I took some of my werewolf ideas into other WW games.

The Wyrm is a great opponet that no WW PC can really support in any real fashion if they are slightly heroic.

The ideas I kicked around as Glass Walker Theruge came back in my Son of Ether's spiritware inventions.

And my diplomocy with spirits comes in handy with my Exalted Eclipse. (Man, I wish I had that "hospitality rule" for my theruge, it would have made my life a lot easier.)
 
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Clear cut bad guys, good guys

Hmmm... Actualy, I would say this is most definetly not true. There is tons of grey in Werwolf. Sure, there are a few things you can be sure are probably "bad"... BSDs, for example... But there is plenty of stuff that is very grey.
 

Tsyr said:


Hmmm... Actualy, I would say this is most definetly not true. There is tons of grey in Werwolf. Sure, there are a few things you can be sure are probably "bad"... BSDs, for example... But there is plenty of stuff that is very grey.

Not arguing that if one does Werewolf in all it's subtles, however, lets not forget formori, banes, and lots of the tainted products that Pentex puts out that damages the body, mind and soul. Unlike vampre, if something is looking pretty ugly and wyrm-twisted in a Garou's eyes, there is little hope for redemption and "humanity" down the road.

And my paragraph in quesiton did start with

At the simpliest level ...

And later I did say ...

Suddenly the "Hack n Slash" of the game had surprising depth

That paragraph basicly stated that out of most of the WW WoD, that Werewolf would be the easiest to understand for a stereotyped DnD player.
 

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