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Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mephista" data-source="post: 9338549" data-attributes="member: 6786252"><p>The world of difference being that its fine to mock anyone who thinks it is possible to make a warlord subclass for Fighter and say its impossible. When the convo was about the Fighter subclass in the first place. Talk about twisting words.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You've said they're not. But its unclear how they're not. How are they not spells? Because so far, they do very much sound like spells to me. So... how are they different besides the name? Its looking like a duck, and quacking like a duck so far. </p><p></p><p>This is a serious question, not a mockery. </p><p></p><p></p><p>That is dodging the question. "How does it fit in" is not asking "how <em><strong>well</strong></em> does it fit in" its asking for the methodology it is fitting in. What are you doing to enable these kinds of play styles? Is it just "you get proficiency at first level?" You've been clear that Extra Attacks isn't something you like for your warlord. Then, how is this going to work?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>When your only problem is that its "its more effective to do it yourself" on a build meant for support, then yes, that's an optimization question. Its easy to make other PCs that out damage a fighter when the fighter isn't being geared for damage. </p><p></p><p>You're assuming that fighters are always going to be the top damage dealers in the party, when that's not a given. Not at the level we're talking about (level 3). At this point, a hunter ranger with two swords will out damage a Fighter thanks to Nick, Two weapon FS, and hitting a target with a Hunter's Mark already up. A rogue with a potential 4d6+DEX seems to be stronger than a Fighter at that level too. </p><p> </p><p>As a fighter levels, they'll get Extra Attacks. But then, so do Barbarian and Paladin and Ranger. The Fighter gets more feats, but if there are more support feats, the</p><p></p><p>Haven't even touched higher level subclass abilities and what they might offer, so at best we can look at level 6 fighter versus level 6 others. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Because you haven't shown anything. You've only said it was, and compared it to banneret, which is doing things differently than I suggested. </p><p></p><p>Unsurprisingly its a bad comparison, since Banneret's only ability at level 3 is a twist on Mass Healing Word, which is a niche ability meant for when everyone is down but you. Its not even Second Wind - its a new ability that takes Second Wind uses. Meanwhile, I've suggested tweaks to at least four different abilities at the same level, with possibility for more. </p><p>The two are using their power budget wildly differently. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. And that's what I'm doing. That's why i suggested new Masteries for the attacks taken. And taking feats that are meant to work with a warlord build instead of a damage focused on. You are directly trading increased damage for support abilities. Taken as a whole, every mechanic would give an incentive.</p><p></p><p>Using second wind on a teammate who's down to get them back on their feat is effective. Using your Indomitable on someone who failed a Hold Person spell to shrug off the spell is effective. Action Surge is only more effective on yourself if the Fighter is being geared for dealing damage and ignoring taking other support abilities for their Masteries, feats, etc. </p><p></p><p></p><p>You're being contrary here. "You haven't changed it." And "allow ... apply to someone else" are mutually exclusive sentences. Changing something from Distance: Self to ... lets say Distance: 30' is a change. A small change, but a change nonetheless.</p><p></p><p>I've also changed the Weapon Mastery this subclass would have, though the exact abilities are tenative at the moment. Hit a monster with a sword, which... lets say it lowered the AC of the monster. Then use your Action Surge to grant the Rogue an action. The rogue deals slightly more damage than the fighter at level 3, and the attack now has more accuracy. </p><p></p><p>This is a net gain, and I don't think its really OP considering there are similar abilities elsewhere.</p><p></p><p>At level 7, there would be new, different abilities. </p><p> </p><p></p><p>No, you're designing for your table, with your table's expectations. That's the thing. We all design for what we'd like to see at our own tables.</p><p></p><p></p><p>And yet, you keep bring it up. Hm.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, you're admitting to taking a joke about a game personally and consider it an insult, even when you don't know that was the intent. People can be critical of something, even make a joke about something, and still enjoy it. The two aren't mutually exclusive, mate. </p><p></p><p></p><p>The Banneret is bad for multiple reasons, and the first ability isn't giving Second Wind to others - its giving a twisted version of Mass Healing Word, a spell that has a niche use. Its no surprise that a niche spell isn't going to be seen as a good ability. </p><p></p><p>I am not doing the same thing, and I am doing -more- things at the same level, which changes the dynamics incredibly.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mephista, post: 9338549, member: 6786252"] The world of difference being that its fine to mock anyone who thinks it is possible to make a warlord subclass for Fighter and say its impossible. When the convo was about the Fighter subclass in the first place. Talk about twisting words. You've said they're not. But its unclear how they're not. How are they not spells? Because so far, they do very much sound like spells to me. So... how are they different besides the name? Its looking like a duck, and quacking like a duck so far. This is a serious question, not a mockery. That is dodging the question. "How does it fit in" is not asking "how [I][B]well[/B][/I] does it fit in" its asking for the methodology it is fitting in. What are you doing to enable these kinds of play styles? Is it just "you get proficiency at first level?" You've been clear that Extra Attacks isn't something you like for your warlord. Then, how is this going to work? When your only problem is that its "its more effective to do it yourself" on a build meant for support, then yes, that's an optimization question. Its easy to make other PCs that out damage a fighter when the fighter isn't being geared for damage. You're assuming that fighters are always going to be the top damage dealers in the party, when that's not a given. Not at the level we're talking about (level 3). At this point, a hunter ranger with two swords will out damage a Fighter thanks to Nick, Two weapon FS, and hitting a target with a Hunter's Mark already up. A rogue with a potential 4d6+DEX seems to be stronger than a Fighter at that level too. As a fighter levels, they'll get Extra Attacks. But then, so do Barbarian and Paladin and Ranger. The Fighter gets more feats, but if there are more support feats, the Haven't even touched higher level subclass abilities and what they might offer, so at best we can look at level 6 fighter versus level 6 others. Because you haven't shown anything. You've only said it was, and compared it to banneret, which is doing things differently than I suggested. Unsurprisingly its a bad comparison, since Banneret's only ability at level 3 is a twist on Mass Healing Word, which is a niche ability meant for when everyone is down but you. Its not even Second Wind - its a new ability that takes Second Wind uses. Meanwhile, I've suggested tweaks to at least four different abilities at the same level, with possibility for more. The two are using their power budget wildly differently. Agreed. And that's what I'm doing. That's why i suggested new Masteries for the attacks taken. And taking feats that are meant to work with a warlord build instead of a damage focused on. You are directly trading increased damage for support abilities. Taken as a whole, every mechanic would give an incentive. Using second wind on a teammate who's down to get them back on their feat is effective. Using your Indomitable on someone who failed a Hold Person spell to shrug off the spell is effective. Action Surge is only more effective on yourself if the Fighter is being geared for dealing damage and ignoring taking other support abilities for their Masteries, feats, etc. You're being contrary here. "You haven't changed it." And "allow ... apply to someone else" are mutually exclusive sentences. Changing something from Distance: Self to ... lets say Distance: 30' is a change. A small change, but a change nonetheless. I've also changed the Weapon Mastery this subclass would have, though the exact abilities are tenative at the moment. Hit a monster with a sword, which... lets say it lowered the AC of the monster. Then use your Action Surge to grant the Rogue an action. The rogue deals slightly more damage than the fighter at level 3, and the attack now has more accuracy. This is a net gain, and I don't think its really OP considering there are similar abilities elsewhere. At level 7, there would be new, different abilities. No, you're designing for your table, with your table's expectations. That's the thing. We all design for what we'd like to see at our own tables. And yet, you keep bring it up. Hm. So, you're admitting to taking a joke about a game personally and consider it an insult, even when you don't know that was the intent. People can be critical of something, even make a joke about something, and still enjoy it. The two aren't mutually exclusive, mate. The Banneret is bad for multiple reasons, and the first ability isn't giving Second Wind to others - its giving a twisted version of Mass Healing Word, a spell that has a niche use. Its no surprise that a niche spell isn't going to be seen as a good ability. I am not doing the same thing, and I am doing -more- things at the same level, which changes the dynamics incredibly. [/QUOTE]
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