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Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mephista" data-source="post: 9338418" data-attributes="member: 6786252"><p>I thought the entire point of the warlord was so that its not magic. And... you've just given them spells but calling them strategies? How are they different? It seems that they're going to scale up like spells? I mean, that's the whole point of the warlock chasis is that their spells automatically level. </p><p></p><p>Are you going to have an Eldritch Blast equivalent? What is it? How does having a sword-and-board-warlord or bow-warlord fit in here? I presume that its going to take up Invocation-equivalents, just like blade-lock and agonizing/repelling EB do. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Glass house, throwing stones.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not ignoring the rest of the class. The fighter chasis (not counting asi/feats or subclass) gets the following abilities - fighting style, second wind, action surge, extra attack, Indomitable. That's literally the entire class. There's a number of feats more suited to a support playstyle than damage, so there's no point in discussing them. 1D&D adds weapon mastery stuff, which can be used to support team instead of just yourself.</p><p></p><p>"But its not as effective!!!" That sounds like an optimizer problem. I don't care about optimzers. I don't play with them. If my group likes playing it and has fun, and its effective enough, does the rest matter? No. </p><p></p><p>If you're not building a fighter for all damage, then it shouldn't be a surprise when another character is better with the action surge. Second wind isn't enough? Then use some more of the power budget on improving it, or get more uses of it, or something. 1d&d Indomitable is much better than the previous version, and one I've been using for a while now.</p><p></p><p>Forget banneret. It was badly made, and diffierent attmepts at a thing can be made.</p><p></p><p>Of course its one single mechanic. I only talked about what I would do as a level 3, and only in part. Not even the whole of the subclass. Just the bare bones beginning of the archetype.</p><p>The point is to showcase how we can turn the core Fighter chasis from being selfish to being a party enabler. Not do everything immediately at level 3. Its something that requires multiple levels as well as feats. Possibly adding in something akin to a superiority die. I don't know everything yet, as its not been designed past the idea stage.</p><p></p><p>How would it be better? Gee, I don't know, maybe because <em>its something the player is enjoying doing? </em>My goal is to make something that's fun to play and fills a need for my table. </p><p></p><p></p><p>But I'm doing the latter, and you said it was OP. You have not demonstrated how its OP. You're just claiming it without explaining why it is.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Or... maybe I find a way that it works together to make a harmonious whole that fulfills the class fantasy for my table and isn't OP. I don't buy into your false dichotomy. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"If I make a selfish, damage focused build, I will categorically be better at using action surges on myself" is a statement that really doesn't need to be said. </p><p></p><p>But I'm kinda assuming that anyone choosing to play a subclass of mine won't be focused on taking damage options - they'll be taking things like the shield-based reaction FS, or the Inspiring Leader feat, instead of things that directly improve damage. I've already suggested non-selfish Weapon Masteries. Which changes the math drastically, and your personal damage <em>will </em>drop.</p><p></p><p>The fact that theyre taking a theoretical warlord subclass means they're already doing less damage than their contemporaries.</p><p></p><p>Optimizers look at the Bladesinger and claim that its best to be used to cast spells normally instead of fight with a blade. But I still see lots of fighting with swords on a bladesinger. Why? <em>Because that's the whole reason that my players take the subclass</em>. The vast majority of players aren't there to optimize party efficienty, they are there to have fun with a specific character concept they have in mind, and want their character to be fun in play. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Again with a false dichotomy. </p><p></p><p>There's a saying called Hazlon's Razor. <em>Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. </em>Well, saying "stupid" here is a bit of a too strong word here, but its conveys the same vibe. You're ascribing malice to people when they just as likely messed up. Mearls put in a lot of effort to make his own warlord subclass for fighter as well, which leads me to think this entire malice-assumption to be silly.</p><p></p><p>Which brings me to another point. If you're going to keep bringing up Banneret while simultaneously claiming that the devs were malicious in, well, effectively sabotaging a warlord-fighter subclass. Then wouldn';t that mean that Banneret shouldn't even be something to consider? Why bring it up at all if its effectively sabotaged? </p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mephista, post: 9338418, member: 6786252"] I thought the entire point of the warlord was so that its not magic. And... you've just given them spells but calling them strategies? How are they different? It seems that they're going to scale up like spells? I mean, that's the whole point of the warlock chasis is that their spells automatically level. Are you going to have an Eldritch Blast equivalent? What is it? How does having a sword-and-board-warlord or bow-warlord fit in here? I presume that its going to take up Invocation-equivalents, just like blade-lock and agonizing/repelling EB do. Glass house, throwing stones. I'm not ignoring the rest of the class. The fighter chasis (not counting asi/feats or subclass) gets the following abilities - fighting style, second wind, action surge, extra attack, Indomitable. That's literally the entire class. There's a number of feats more suited to a support playstyle than damage, so there's no point in discussing them. 1D&D adds weapon mastery stuff, which can be used to support team instead of just yourself. "But its not as effective!!!" That sounds like an optimizer problem. I don't care about optimzers. I don't play with them. If my group likes playing it and has fun, and its effective enough, does the rest matter? No. If you're not building a fighter for all damage, then it shouldn't be a surprise when another character is better with the action surge. Second wind isn't enough? Then use some more of the power budget on improving it, or get more uses of it, or something. 1d&d Indomitable is much better than the previous version, and one I've been using for a while now. Forget banneret. It was badly made, and diffierent attmepts at a thing can be made. Of course its one single mechanic. I only talked about what I would do as a level 3, and only in part. Not even the whole of the subclass. Just the bare bones beginning of the archetype. The point is to showcase how we can turn the core Fighter chasis from being selfish to being a party enabler. Not do everything immediately at level 3. Its something that requires multiple levels as well as feats. Possibly adding in something akin to a superiority die. I don't know everything yet, as its not been designed past the idea stage. How would it be better? Gee, I don't know, maybe because [I]its something the player is enjoying doing? [/I]My goal is to make something that's fun to play and fills a need for my table. But I'm doing the latter, and you said it was OP. You have not demonstrated how its OP. You're just claiming it without explaining why it is. Or... maybe I find a way that it works together to make a harmonious whole that fulfills the class fantasy for my table and isn't OP. I don't buy into your false dichotomy. "If I make a selfish, damage focused build, I will categorically be better at using action surges on myself" is a statement that really doesn't need to be said. But I'm kinda assuming that anyone choosing to play a subclass of mine won't be focused on taking damage options - they'll be taking things like the shield-based reaction FS, or the Inspiring Leader feat, instead of things that directly improve damage. I've already suggested non-selfish Weapon Masteries. Which changes the math drastically, and your personal damage [I]will [/I]drop. The fact that theyre taking a theoretical warlord subclass means they're already doing less damage than their contemporaries. Optimizers look at the Bladesinger and claim that its best to be used to cast spells normally instead of fight with a blade. But I still see lots of fighting with swords on a bladesinger. Why? [I]Because that's the whole reason that my players take the subclass[/I]. The vast majority of players aren't there to optimize party efficienty, they are there to have fun with a specific character concept they have in mind, and want their character to be fun in play. Again with a false dichotomy. There's a saying called Hazlon's Razor. [I]Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. [/I]Well, saying "stupid" here is a bit of a too strong word here, but its conveys the same vibe. You're ascribing malice to people when they just as likely messed up. Mearls put in a lot of effort to make his own warlord subclass for fighter as well, which leads me to think this entire malice-assumption to be silly. Which brings me to another point. If you're going to keep bringing up Banneret while simultaneously claiming that the devs were malicious in, well, effectively sabotaging a warlord-fighter subclass. Then wouldn';t that mean that Banneret shouldn't even be something to consider? Why bring it up at all if its effectively sabotaged? [I][/I] [/QUOTE]
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