Why I don't like Wealth by Level guidelines

[Ultimatecalibur]

I will be blunt; I don't like wealth by level guidelines. This is actually for several reasons. Some of the major ones are:

• Treasure becomes Payment instead of Reward - When you know how much money/gold/magic items you are getting in a time period (in this case the time it takes you to gain the xp to go up a level) it isn't a reward its a payment. Rewards are exciting and unexpected. Payments aren't. Bounty hunters and lawmen get paid for catching criminals with bounties on there heads; other people get rewards because they were not expecting to get the bounty.
  
• Magic Items become less Magical - If you are guaranteed to have a +5 weapon by level 25, that +5 to hit and damage becomes a modifier and not a bonus. Modifiers are normal, ordinary and nothing special. Designers will factor them into the math when creating opponents, and at that point there is practically no difference between a creature designed to be hit by a +5 weapon when a character is expected to have a +5 weapon and one designed to be hit without a +X weapon when +X or greater weapons are unavailable.
  
• Players start to feel entitled to having the Items and Treasure they want - While it isn't a problem caused directly by wealth by level guidelines, it does exists when those guidelines are combined with the ability to make and/or purchase any/most items they want. Situations such as this start appearing: "We just found a Vorpal greatsword. Let's melt it down; I want a Holy Avenger longsword." They don't consider any treasure but those, primarily permanent, items that they do want to be useful. This cause interesting items such as Figurines of Wondrous Power, Decanters of Endless Water and even consumables to be worth less to the players than the item's value in gold.
  
• All characters have the same amount of Money if they are the same level - At level 1 in most games Bob the turnip farmer turned adventurer and Henri the merchant prince of a wealth nation have the same starting wealth and can start with the same quality equipment. Something feels off about this.

Things I have no problems with if they are not included with Wealth by Level guidelines:

• Magic item shops - While there plausibility varies based on campaign and world, in of themselves they do make sense. There has to be somewhere to buy and sell various goods, and this includes magic items. Magic item shops are even a good place to generate character goals and adventures. See a flaming sword or magic ring in the window you want, but its price is 20 times as much as what you currently have? You could go out, adventure and save up till you have enough to buy what you want, or you could come up with a scheme to steal it. Both can lead to exciting stories.
  
• Magic item crafting - I have no problem with crafting magic items. There are some great tales to be told about doing so. You can build entire adventures around forging one or more weapons or other items.
  
• Treasure Parcels - Treasure Parcels are great! They allow you to figure out how much treasure to give out in an adventure and how you are going to give it out. 10 parcels? 3 go in the dragons horde, 2 in the mercenaries paychest, 1 is divided up in the pockets of the mercenaries themselves, the ogre has 1 in his bag of goods, 1 is hidden at the bottom of the ravine on the corpse of an adventurer and the final 2 are in the hidden treasure chamber. Now all I need to do is figure out how much and what treasure I want to give out and then divide it into 10 roughly equal groupings. Treasure parcels have been in D&D at least as far back as 1e (then they were known as treasure types, though they did have problems of their own. Centaurs with 1,000,000 gp gems anyone?)
  
• Magic item Wishlists - Wishlists are great for finding out what sort of things players want for their characters. They are great sources for treasure ideas. The problems start appearing when they get treated like checklists.
  
• Equipment Quality - When all you can expect to have is ordinary equipment, even a +1 bonus to hit and damage or even a negation of penalties becomes magic. How many 2e Dark Sun players got excited about something as simple as an iron or steel dagger? Probably a lot if they had been reliant primarily on wood, stone and/or bone weapons. Mithral and elven chainmail are basically chainmail with out the penalties to thief skills, but many a thief was willing to trade an arm and a leg for just a chance to wear a suit.
  
• Inherent Bonuses - Inherent bonuses are great. Who can complain about gaining damage reduction/weapon resistance from bathing in the river Lethe or gaining the ability to hear the speech of animals from eating the fat from a dragons heart. I have even played around with the idea that dragon slayers age slow and have enhanced senses after having killing a dragon.

 

[wolfpunk]

So are you using Wealth by Level or not in your games. If not, how is it going?

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

So are you using Wealth by Level or not in your games. If not, how is it going?

I'm not really playing right now, and more working on a Fantasy Heartbreaker rebuild of 4e. In it I hope to have level 1-30 playing in the Heroic, Paragon and Epic tiers individually at a large variety of wealth levels. This is also why I created my Common Combat Action thread a few days ago.

So to answer your question: Not planning to, and I don't know yet.

 

[Stoat]

In 4E the simple solution is to use inherent bonuses.

Wealth by level is essentially a point buy system with the purpose of making sure that PC's have stats high enough to survive combat against equal-level opponents, but not so high that they won't be challenged by equal-level opponents. Inherent bonuses take care of the stat-balancing issue and destroy the need for a wealth-by-level system.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

In 4E the simple solution is to use inherent bonuses.

Wealth by level is essentially a point buy system with the purpose of making sure that PC's have stats high enough to survive combat against equal-level opponents, but not so high that they won't be challenged by equal-level opponents. Inherent bonuses take care of the stat-balancing issue and destroy the need for a wealth-by-level system.

Ah, but the truth about the inherent bonus system in 4e is that they are still the Wealth by Level guidelines just with a different coat of paint. You still gain a +1 bonus to hit, damage and the 4 defenses within every 5 level section. You could have the same effect if you dropped +1 per 5 levels modifiers from magic items and gave monsters a -1 modifier per 5 levels to hit, damage and their 4 defense and maybe -1 hp per level for every 5 levels.

 

[Nagol]

The original purpose of the WbL guidelines was for published adventures to take into account the expected resources of the 'typical' group when planning for barriers and obstacles. It was also a way for a DM to measure the actual wealth in his campaign against a published norm -- it's at least a way for the DM to guard against Monty Haulism or reward parsimony.

I dislike the thought that a set of characters should be restricted or entitled to WbL guidelines and further rewards should be adjusted to maintain that level.

In my 3.5e campaign, the PCs wealth has varied away from the WbL (both up and down) as a consequence of player strategy, group success, and mission choice.

I've felt no need to bump up rewards when the player group became smitten with consumables (potions and scrolls) and spent several thousand gp to recover a few hundred on mission after mission. I've felt no need to pare down the rewards when the group had a specacular success in a treasure haul and ended well above WbL guidelines for a level or two. Nor did I feel the need to bump the potential rewards when most of the group's items were lost in a near-TPK and the guideline wealth was well above their actual wealth.

For me, wealth is one of the measures the PCs should take into consideration when the group is making is strategic choices as to what missions to accept, what resources to commit, and what contingences to prepare. It really isn't a concern for the DM save to help guard his own behaviour when designing scenarios and challenges.

 

[Stoat]

Ah, but the truth about the inherent bonus system in 4e is that they are still the Wealth by Level guidelines just with a different coat of paint. You still gain a +1 bonus to hit, damage and the 4 defenses within every 5 level section. You could have the same effect if you dropped +1 per 5 levels modifiers from magic items and gave monsters a -1 modifier per 5 levels to hit, damage and their 4 defense and maybe -1 hp per level for every 5 levels.

Using inherent bonuses decouples the +X bonus to hit, damage and the 4 defenses from the players' wealth. In that way, inherent bonuses get you out from under wealth by level guidelines.

I would rather WotC have done away with the idea of +X items in the first place. They did not, and monsters are built with the expectation that PC's will have +X items. +X items lead to WbL guideliens. Removing +X items (through inherent bonuses) removes the need for WbL guidelines.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I just wanted to chime in and say, I love discussion of game design that is (1) honest, (2) open, and (3) decoupled from edition squabbling! Keep it up, guys, and I'll keep reading!

Ultimatecalibur, best of luck with your Fantasy Heartbreaker!

Since it is 4e based, I assume that you are not going to release it to a wider audience? Or are you going to "retro-clone" something similar to 4e, and use the OGL? Depending upon what you're doing, you might want to talk to LostSoul about his "fiction-first" hack, or the Jester for ways to use 4e materials "outside the box".


RC

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Using inherent bonuses decouples the +X bonus to hit, damage and the 4 defenses from the players' wealth. In that way, inherent bonuses get you out from under wealth by level guidelines.

Only by detaching in game concepts like physical objects and gp prices from those effects. Out of game those concepts still exist. By the 4e magic item wealth by level guidelines a 5th character receives an ability worth 1000 gp, such as Spider Climbing, no matter if it is inherent or in the form of a pair of boots.

I would rather WotC have done away with the idea of +X items in the first place. They did not, and monsters are built with the expectation that PC's will have +X items. +X items lead to WbL guideliens. Removing +X items (through inherent bonuses) removes the need for WbL guidelines.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse here. As I tried to point out in my OP, +X items do not themselves lead to WbL guidelines, monster designs expecting +X bonuses do. All inherent bonuses do is move the bonuses from items to the characters. This is the same as taking white chicken eggs, dunking them in various colored paints and calling them Easter eggs. They are still chicken eggs they just have a different color and name.

 

[the Jester]

This is an interesting topic to me; I'm working on a homebrewed system in which I'm strongly considering either bringing back the "xp for treasure" model of early D&D or switching to an "xp for spending money on drinks and whores" model. Either one has the effect of shifting the game's emphasis from killing things and taking their stuff to getting paid.

I agree 100% with the original post excepting the "likes" of wishlists and magic item shops, but even then, in the right game a magic item shop is okay.