Why didn't they change Slay Living?

[Li Shenron]

IIRC this spell was not changes from 3.0, or was it?

Slay Living
Necromancy [Death]
Level: Clr 5, Death 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

You can slay any one living creature. You must succeed on a melee touch attack to touch the subject, and it can avoid death with a successful Fortitude save. If it succeeds, it instead takes 3d6 points of damage +1 point per caster level.

This is the lowest level save-or-die spell except for Phantasmal Killer (which allows two saves (Will and Fort) making it quite less dangerous).

Why Slay Living wasn't changed somehow by 3.5? Isn't it now more powerful than Harm, which would never kill and is one level higher? Do you think that WotC forgot about this spell during the revision or kept it like this on purpose?

It is really a very powerful spell, and because clerics are much more suited to be in melee than wizards, the fact that it is a "touch spell" does not make a serious restriction. The only limit is that it applies only to living creatures, which excludes undead, constructs and elementals.

Do you think this spell should have been toned down somehow?

 

[Krelios]

Nope.

 

[delericho]

Why Slay Living wasn't changed somehow by 3.5? Isn't it now more powerful than Harm, which would never kill and is one level higher? Do you think that WotC forgot about this spell during the revision or kept it like this on purpose?

I think Harm is quite capable of killing: "Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 point of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level). If the creatures successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target's hit points to less than 1." (PHB p.239)

The second sentence there seems to indicate that Harm cannot kill only if the target saves.

(Incidentally, the description of Slay Living should include a cap on how much damage the spell can do on a save - I think +15 is the appropriate maximum for a 5th level spell.)

Is Slay Living too powerful? Hard to say, but I don't think so. The fact that it's a Fort save spell makes it limited in usefulness against Fighter-types, while the range of touch requires that the caster move into position to target the opponent. This probably limits its use against the party wizard - how often is an enemy cleric going to be able to move into touch range of the wizard? Thus, its main usefulness is against the rogue-types.

On the other hand, Harm is also a touch spell, but with a Will save. Additionally, the consequences of a successful save are also fairly significant. The loss of 55 hit points is (or should be) significant to even a high level fighter-type, and the loss of 110 is likely to be fatal to any other type of character.

I think Slay Living is probably about right. That said, I definately agree with Monte Cook's sentiment that perhaps the levels at which certain effects come into play need to be reassessed.

 

[Felix]

The only limit is that it applies only to living creatures, which excludes ... elementals.

And possibly does affect elementals. The wording of Horrid Wilting says it affects living creatures, and does extra damage to water elementals... implying that elementals are living creatures.

But no, Slay Living is OK by me.

The touch range means you'll probably be casting it on a fairly strong melee character, and most of those guys have Fort as their good save. This spell is scary for rogues, though. It's also [Death] magic so it can be blocked by a few things.

And 5th level spells should be scary. This just happens to be one of the meaner ones.

 

[Infiniti2000]

There's no implication about it, elementals are living creatures. They are immune to a number of things and function like nonliving creatures for many of their treats (no need to sleep, eat, or breathe, not subject to raise dead, etc.), but they are living.

I also don't think it's overpowered and that's based on using it quite a bit. Death ward blocks it completely (but then death ward blocks quite a large number of spells, including harm). Some people apparently play FoM as save-or-die, so 5th level is okay. Plane shifting someone to the elemental plane of fire could be considered a save-or-die spell, too. There are others.

 

[Henry]

And possibly does affect elementals. The wording of Horrid Wilting says it affects living creatures, and does extra damage to water elementals... implying that elementals are living creatures.

There's a whole can of worms with Horrid Wilting, which means it's not a good example for that precedent. My take is that it mentions water elementals because they're water elementals -- and no mention is made of any other type of elemental.

Back to slay living -- it is a good spell for 5th level as-is, and in my opinon they went too far the OTHER way with Heal/Harm - they gave it a save AND a hit point cap, AND now Death Ward is defense against it (unlike in 3.0) which was a bit too far in my opinion. Harm to me is closer to a 5th level spell now, whereas in its 3.0 form it was more like a 7th or 8th level spell!

Slay living requires a touch, AND a fort save, AND creatures immune to death magic (such as the immunity given by Death ward one level below it) aren't affected.

 

[Infiniti2000]

To be fair, it was a change in 3.5 death ward that allows it to be used against harm and similar spells. I agree with the spirit of your comment, though, in that the 3.5 designers should have considered both changes (if they didn't, but perhaps the playtesters thought it worked well as is).

re: elementals
Just read the type info on the elemental to find out if it's living or not.

 

[delericho]

Some people apparently play FoM as save-or-die.

What's FoM?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Freedom of movement -- and that comment as tongue-in-cheek.

 

[delericho]

Freedom of movement -- and that comment as tongue-in-cheek.

Ah, thanks. I'd skipped the Freedom of Movement thread.