why are "create undead" and "control undead" so awful?

[evilbob]

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but why is it that a 6th level spell (create undead) can only create a CR 1 creature with 13 HP when you first get it, but a 4th level spell (animate dead) can potentially create a CR 6 creature with over 80 HP when you first get it?

It seems like create undead should really be more like a 3rd level spell. It's almost worthless compared to animate dead, at least until level 15 or so. The undead it creates also are not under your control; they need an additional spell to control them. So why is this spell such a high level? What makes it worthwhile? And why is it a 6th level spell?


However, even worse is the disparity between command undead and control undead. Command is a 2nd level spell that is an auto-win against unintelligent undead, and when it works it works for days and days. Control is a 7th level spell that works for minutes. Granted, it is apparently more like dominate vs. command's charm-like effect, but the duration makes the spell completely useless. It can also potentially work on more than one target, but since you're limited by hit die - 2 HD/level - you'll be lucky to actually get anything with few enough HD for the spell to even qualify.

Sure, the level is higher, so the DC is naturally higher, but other than that, what's the point? What makes this spell useful at all? Why would you ever bother?


Any light shed on either of these quandaries is appreciated!

 

[krupintupple]

perhaps one of the reasons could be that create undead allows one to create self-willed, intelligent undead, with no level cap - it appears if one had the time and the money, there is no limit on how many ghouls you could have overrunning a local town; who, by the way, would 'recruit' more undead for your armies. this is presumably a very NPC type thing to do.

animate dead seems to be for unintelligent sentries, and has a hard cap upon how many you can create/have.

 

[Claudius Gaius]

I suspect that its because the designers didn't want characters being able to make undead that could make and command other undead until they were so powerful that that ability didn't really matter. Ergo a high level and a miserable base effect for the spell which would allow that ability. Similarily, the effects of a long-term Control Undead could allow you to control a horde of other undead indirectly.

 

[evilbob]

Similarily, the effects of a long-term Control Undead could allow you to control a horde of other undead indirectly.

True, but so could a well-placed dominate person (a 5th level spell), assuming you got the right person.

When you have 7th level spells, who really cares about a save-or-slightly-delay undead spell? Why not just vaporize them? (Disintegrate is both a lower level spell and has a better chance of working.) I honestly believe that control undead was meant to be more like a limited dominate monster - like command undead is a limited charm monster. 2 spell levels lower, confined to a single type... It make much more sense that way. I think it should have been days/level instead of minutes. And if you're worried about controlling something too powerful - well it already has an HD cap. Seems fair enough.


Creating creatures that create MORE creatures seems like a powerful ability... except that we're still talking about CR 1 monsters. Honestly, who cares? (Well, other than all the CR 1/2 villagers who you could have killed with a fireball anyway.) Not to mention that we're not talking about creating infinitely spawning critters under your control - we're talking about a single monster that you have to continue to dominate somehow (expending your resources), whose minions you would have to work even harder to ALSO control, and who - if intelligent enough - might even use their spawning abilities to topple your control of them (duh, evil). I think it's already well-limited.

The main thing that's "wrong" with this spell is that the people who wrote animate dead didn't seem to realize that you could make skeletons or zombies out of more than just human commoners. If you keep to the idea that a 4th level spell can make only CR 1/2 or CR 1/3 creatures, then the 6th level spell to create CR 1 and then CR 3 monsters makes more sense. However, if you stuck with this idea, then that whole line of spells is worthless. Who cares how many CR 1/3 monsters you have at your command at level 7? Again, no one but the CR 1/2 villagers, all of whom could die to your fireball, anyway.


Any other thoughts as to why these spells are so strangely high level?

 

[irdeggman]

True, but so could a well-placed dominate person (a 5th level spell), assuming you got the right person.

When you have 7th level spells, who really cares about a save-or-slightly-delay undead spell? Why not just vaporize them? (Disintegrate is both a lower level spell and has a better chance of working.) I honestly believe that control undead was meant to be more like a limited dominate monster - like command undead is a limited charm monster. 2 spell levels lower, confined to a single type... It make much more sense that way. I think it should have been days/level instead of minutes. And if you're worried about controlling something too powerful - well it already has an HD cap. Seems fair enough.


Creating creatures that create MORE creatures seems like a powerful ability... except that we're still talking about CR 1 monsters. Honestly, who cares? (Well, other than all the CR 1/2 villagers who you could have killed with a fireball anyway.) Not to mention that we're not talking about creating infinitely spawning critters under your control - we're talking about a single monster that you have to continue to dominate somehow (expending your resources), whose minions you would have to work even harder to ALSO control, and who - if intelligent enough - might even use their spawning abilities to topple your control of them (duh, evil). I think it's already well-limited.

The main thing that's "wrong" with this spell is that the people who wrote animate dead didn't seem to realize that you could make skeletons or zombies out of more than just human commoners. If you keep to the idea that a 4th level spell can make only CR 1/2 or CR 1/3 creatures, then the 6th level spell to create CR 1 and then CR 3 monsters makes more sense. However, if you stuck with this idea, then that whole line of spells is worthless. Who cares how many CR 1/3 monsters you have at your command at level 7? Again, no one but the CR 1/2 villagers, all of whom could die to your fireball, anyway.


Any other thoughts as to why these spells are so strangely high level?

You've lost me on this logic.

Dominate Person has a saving throw and the undead spells do not, in general spells with no saving throws are of higher levels than those with them.

Where is this CR 1/2 or 1/3 limit coming from on the Animate Dead spell?

I don't see that at all. You can create up to 2 x your CL in HD (for a 7th level wizard that is 14 HD).

You can control up to 4 x your CL if undead at a time (for a 7th level wizard that is 28 HD).

With one casting, a 7th level wizard can create and control a Minotaur zombie (12 HD, CR 4) then add in two levels of fighter (nothing says they can't be "advanced" monsters either at creation or subsequently) to a total of 14 HD, CR 6 (?))

It gets better as levels progress (2 x CL HD {per casting} and 4 x CL for control at one time)

 

[Kerrick]

With one casting, a 7th level wizard can create and control a Minotaur zombie (12 HD, CR 4) then add in two levels of fighter (nothing says they can't be "advanced" monsters either at creation or subsequently) to a total of 14 HD, CR 6 (?))

You can't add class levels to a mindless creature. The text specifically says, "Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1)" - which means if you have a humanoid with class levels, you drop all but 1 HD and double that.

Personally, I wouldn't mind adding control to create undead but not greater undead - lesser undead like ghouls and ghasts can create spawn, but they're not under anyone's control, while greater undead spawn are. Still, the ability to create lots more undead for free IS a powerful ability...

 

[Nail]

Any way you parse this trouble, keep in mind that the undead a necromancer creates/controls should be no better than Summon Undead/Monster/Nature's Ally.

And given the potentially permanent nature of the creation of Undead, the Undead should be weaker overall, IMO.

 

[Set]

The problem, IMO, lies in the nature of the undead themselves.

Ghouls, Ghasts, Shadows, Wights, Wraiths, Vampires, Spectres, etc. can all create *infinite* numbers of other undead.

One Shadow can, in a single night, turn an entire village full of commoners into Shadows.

Take away this unlimited 'spawn' ability, and the undead would be far less world-destroying, and the spells to gain permanant control of them would be similarly reasonable choices.

 

[evilbob]

irdeggman: Sorry if I wasn't clear. Control does require a saving throw, just like dominate. And command does for intelligent undead. So they're very similar. My explanation of the CR 1/3 thing with animate dead is not the limit of the spell: I was saying the spell could make sense - when relating to the create undead spells - if you could only create CR 1/2 or 1/3 creatures. Since you can make better creatures, it means the create series is out of whack. (Or at least, in comparison to animate dead.)

Nail: Actually, animate dead is clearly more powerful than summon monster IV already. And create undead - at caster level 11, anyway - is far worse than summon monster VI. I understand your point, but I think those don't seem to make a good comparison. (Unless, again, animate dead could only create CR 1/2 or 1/3 creatures - which we're all agreeing is not a limitation of the spell.)

Set: I agree in principle, but again: if you created an tremendous number of ghouls when you're level 11, does that really matter? They're CR 1 creatures. I mean, it could make a difference in the "world" at large, sure - but so could several rampaging fireballs cast by a rogue mage. Most town guards could probably even group up and take them out (especially elven ones). I still challenge the notion that a horde of CR 1 ghouls could do more damage to the "world" than tons of other 6th level spells.

Once you start talking about mummies and shadows and things, then yes: the picture changes slightly. But only slightly. As-listed, those are still only available at level 15+... And again, I'm sure if you fired off an 8th level spell in every town you passed through, you'd make as much of a difference in the world as a bunch of shadows.


I guess what I'm saying is that I'm still just not seeing it. Either animate dead is overpowered, or create undead is underpowered. But their power level just doesn't seem to stack up - at least not with create undead being 2 spell levels higher.

 

[Stratovarius]

One change I've played around with is moving Create Undead down to a level 2 spell (Wizard), and simply not allowing those killed by Ghouls or Shadows to rise again. It is necessary to be careful, as Shadows especially can cause havoc with their DR, but this is true of many incorporeal undead throughout their existence. Most monsters have a hell of a time getting access to magic weapons. The CR of the monsters is lower than that of the Skeletons/Zombies. Further play-testing is needed though to determine how well it works in a longer campaign. Oh, and the undead are controlled in the same manner and the same cap as Animating.