Why are Apes size Large?

[Jeff Wilder]

According to the SRD, "an adult male ape is 5½ to 6 feet tall and weighs 300 to 400 pounds." This is about right for the largest primates in the real world.

So why is that size Large?

I am 6'5" tall and over 300 pounds. I've got a good reach, but it sure as hell ain't 10 feet.

Is this a screw-up? What wins, the stat-block or the size description?

 

[Stone Dog]

Apes have longer arms that give them reach?

Ummm.. I got nothing. How big are the bases on ape miniatures?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Ummm.. I got nothing. How big are the bases on ape miniatures?

DDM doesn't have one yet. (DDM has the Dire Ape, which is rightly size Large.) The Taer -- an intelligent ape-like Medium giant -- is, IMO, exactly the size an ape should be.

 

[Storm Raven]

According to the SRD, "an adult male ape is 5½ to 6 feet tall and weighs 300 to 400 pounds." This is about right for the largest primates in the real world.

So why is that size Large?

I am 6'5" tall and over 300 pounds. I've got a good reach, but it sure as hell ain't 10 feet.

Is this a screw-up? What wins, the stat-block or the size description?

Well, the size given isn't quite right for eastern gorillas, which weigh 400-500 pounds. Most of their weight and strength is in their upper bodies, so making them Large with reach seems about right.

 

[heirodule]

IIRC, the official description for "Ape" implies that the "Ape" is a more "agressive" cousin of the Gorilla (maybe more like 1Es "Carnivorous Ape").

But that means the set of normal animals doesn't contain a regular gorilla

I'd like to see a gorilla put into the game. A few more distinctions among the animal types would be welcome. How about Bull as well as Bison.

Or at least an explicit call out for which animals can represent which other types of animals.

But Apes are stupid-large, especially with the 10' reach at the same time. The climb speed is nice though.

 

[heirodule]

DDM doesn't have one yet. (DDM has the Dire Ape, which is rightly size Large.) The Taer -- an intelligent ape-like Medium giant -- is, IMO, exactly the size an ape should be.

I rebased a Taer and painted it black to rep my Ape animal companion. Looks pretty good.

The other problem is the Dire Ape mini is fairly small. Its hard to imagine anything *smaller* than the Dire Ape managing a 10' space and 10' reach.

 

[frankthedm]

Is this a screw-up? What wins, the stat-block or the size description?

I say treat them as large with a 5' base and without reach. Just as they were in the original printing of the 3.0 Monster Manual. They did not have reach in that printing and they really do not need it at thier CR of two. Let the Dire ape be the one who has reach. Plus a 10' base is far too clunky to use when it is time to go Congo on a mid level level party.

Apes as i run them.
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+11 (29 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 30 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
Attack: Claws +7 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d6+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +14, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Toughness
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or company (3-5)
Challenge Rating: 2
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large)

DDM: Wardrums has an ape changed to medium size without any reductions to Str or damage die size.

I think the "to hit" should be one point higher.

 

[frankthedm]

Its hard to imagine anything *smaller* than the Dire Ape managing a 10' space and 10' reach.

I agree. Now I do say that 5'x5' my apes take up is in is pretty damn full of ape. Try and trip one and you'd swear it was large. Try and bull rush one and you'd swear it was large, Try to Grapple one and you won't get your arms back unless it figures out how to beat you with them.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

DDM: Wardrums has an ape changed to medium size without any reductions to Str or damage die size.

That's a great catch! I think the Large size is a mistake.

 

[Desdichado]

According to the SRD, "an adult male ape is 5½ to 6 feet tall and weighs 300 to 400 pounds." This is about right for the largest primates in the real world.

There are a few examples of gorillas that are over 6 feet tall and over 500 lbs. Recently (relatively speaking) extinct Gigantopithecus would have been nine to ten feet tall and weighed up to 1200 lbs, according to some estimates. Certainly in the large category. Even then, most apes have disproportionately long arms compared to humans, so reach for even a gorilla isn't too hard to envision. Plus,

IIRC, the official description for "Ape" implies that the "Ape" is a more "agressive" cousin of the Gorilla (maybe more like 1Es "Carnivorous Ape").

That too. I imagine it being somewhat like the "anthropoid apes" of Tarzan fame. A bit larger, stronger and more aggressive than a gorilla.

But you make a good point--that description is a bit large for a medium creature (at least in terms of weight) but still within that size class, I'd say, while it's downright tiny as a Large creature.