Who invented Orcs?
- Thread starter Tuzenbach
- Start date
Galethorn
First Post
Short Answer: Tolkien invented orcs.
Long Answer: Tolkien invented orcs as we know them, but certainly not the name itself. There were the Orks (I think that's what they're called) of greek myth, which were big 'ol sea monsters, as well as the Orkneys/(Insert Alternate Spelling here) who were an irish/early scottish tribe, and/or a group of islands north of modern scotland. Also, there's some mention of 'orks' or the like in Beowulf, which (as far as I could tell from my limited research) was in some capacity, a reference to the Orkneys, as well as the Orcaes (or something like that) who were deamons of Anglo-Saxon myth.
Now, of course, this is just what I've found after my own perusal of various sources, including Tolkien's foreward (or was it an appendix?) specifically about Orcs in LOTR, where he mentioned the greek sea-beasts, and how they were unrelated, as well as the Anglo-Saxon demons, which he attests to as the primary source for the term orc.
So, satisfied? Anybody else have more complete information?
Long Answer: Tolkien invented orcs as we know them, but certainly not the name itself. There were the Orks (I think that's what they're called) of greek myth, which were big 'ol sea monsters, as well as the Orkneys/(Insert Alternate Spelling here) who were an irish/early scottish tribe, and/or a group of islands north of modern scotland. Also, there's some mention of 'orks' or the like in Beowulf, which (as far as I could tell from my limited research) was in some capacity, a reference to the Orkneys, as well as the Orcaes (or something like that) who were deamons of Anglo-Saxon myth.
Now, of course, this is just what I've found after my own perusal of various sources, including Tolkien's foreward (or was it an appendix?) specifically about Orcs in LOTR, where he mentioned the greek sea-beasts, and how they were unrelated, as well as the Anglo-Saxon demons, which he attests to as the primary source for the term orc.
So, satisfied? Anybody else have more complete information?
John Q. Mayhem
Explorer
That jibes with what I've read. By the by, I understand that those sea monsters were the source of the name orca (killer whale), and the name Orcus. Is't so?
Ulrick
First Post
Tolkien would have taken "orc" from Old English sources I suspect because he was a scholar in that sort of stuff.
I don't know if orc is an Old English word, though. If it is, I'd be interested to know it's literal translation.
I know a lot of old English words like "wight" and "freek" meant Man.
I don't know if orc is an Old English word, though. If it is, I'd be interested to know it's literal translation.
I know a lot of old English words like "wight" and "freek" meant Man.
s/LaSH
First Post
The Shorter Oxford indicates that Orcus means 'hell' in Latin, and Orco can refer to demons in Italian. It also indicates the use of 'orc' as ferocious sea monster from the 16th to 19th centuries, when it was transferred to the Whale Killer (a dolphin whose name got scrambled to Killer Whale); and 'orc' as a kind of ogre, used in the late sixteenth century. Then it starts the references to Tolkein.
It seems likely that there's a relation between all these hideous monster words. But I'm no linguist, so I can't say for certain. I just made a race of orcs who lived underwater because of this.
It seems likely that there's a relation between all these hideous monster words. But I'm no linguist, so I can't say for certain. I just made a race of orcs who lived underwater because of this.
Incenjucar
Legend
Prime_Evil
Adventurer
In Old English, the term 'orc' is used to refer to a category of demon or ogre. It first appears in Old English glosses of about AD 800 and in the compound word orcneas ("monsters") in lines 112-113 of the poem Beowulf:
Thanon untydras ealle onwocon
eotenas ond ylfe, ond orcneas,
swylce gigantas
"Then woke all evil broods:
etins, elves and orcs,
and also giants."
The word "orcneas" is a plural of a word whose (unattested) singular would have been orcen. It is not entirely clear what this word meant, but it seems to refer to a humanoid monster of some sort.
Some commentators (such as Fred C. Robinson in his 'Beowulf and the Appositive style', p83) have suggested that as with the Italian orco ("ogre"), the term 'orcneas' ultimately derives from the Latin term 'Orcus'.This word used by classical authors to refer to the god of the underworld -- the Roman god Pluto. Latin authors never used this word to refer to a demon or anything similar. It picked up this sense when it was revived in the the late sixteenth century (possibly by Milton?). The word Orcus was never very common until Gygax used it as the name of a demon lord.
There is also a phrase in an Old English glossary -- orc-thyrs othe hel-deofol which means 'orc-demon or hell-devil'. Again, the meaning of the orc itself is not entirely clear here, but 'ogre' is probably fairly close.
The term orc-thyrs is particularly interesting because in the Germanic languages the term 'Thrys' or 'Thurse' (Old English þyrs - ðÿrs; Old Norse þurs) was used to denoted an entire category of humanoid monsters related to giants. For an example of this usage, see Thrym's Lay in the Old Norse Poetic Edda.
Norse literature refers to different sorts, such as rime-thurses (ice giants) and berg-thurses (mountain giants). In Old Norse, the terms "thurse" and "ettin" (related to Old Norse jötunn or giant) are fairly interchangeable, but modern authors usually distinguish between these two races.
Germanic mythology gave rise to the Middle English 'thurs' or 'thirs' (ðürs) -- a monster or spectre. Wycliffe used this term in a note on the term lamia in his 1382 translation of the Bible:
that is, a thirs or a beste hauende the bodi like a womman and horses feet. (note to Isaiah 34:14)
The Authorised Version of the Bible (1611) translated this as “screech owl”, or “night monster” which was retained in the Revised Version.
The word 'thurse' resurfaced in the 16th and 17th centuries to refer to hobgoblins. There were also hobthrush (adapted from hob + thurse) and hobthrust -- alternate terms for hobgoblins.
Thanon untydras ealle onwocon
eotenas ond ylfe, ond orcneas,
swylce gigantas
"Then woke all evil broods:
etins, elves and orcs,
and also giants."
The word "orcneas" is a plural of a word whose (unattested) singular would have been orcen. It is not entirely clear what this word meant, but it seems to refer to a humanoid monster of some sort.
Some commentators (such as Fred C. Robinson in his 'Beowulf and the Appositive style', p83) have suggested that as with the Italian orco ("ogre"), the term 'orcneas' ultimately derives from the Latin term 'Orcus'.This word used by classical authors to refer to the god of the underworld -- the Roman god Pluto. Latin authors never used this word to refer to a demon or anything similar. It picked up this sense when it was revived in the the late sixteenth century (possibly by Milton?). The word Orcus was never very common until Gygax used it as the name of a demon lord.
There is also a phrase in an Old English glossary -- orc-thyrs othe hel-deofol which means 'orc-demon or hell-devil'. Again, the meaning of the orc itself is not entirely clear here, but 'ogre' is probably fairly close.
The term orc-thyrs is particularly interesting because in the Germanic languages the term 'Thrys' or 'Thurse' (Old English þyrs - ðÿrs; Old Norse þurs) was used to denoted an entire category of humanoid monsters related to giants. For an example of this usage, see Thrym's Lay in the Old Norse Poetic Edda.
Norse literature refers to different sorts, such as rime-thurses (ice giants) and berg-thurses (mountain giants). In Old Norse, the terms "thurse" and "ettin" (related to Old Norse jötunn or giant) are fairly interchangeable, but modern authors usually distinguish between these two races.
Germanic mythology gave rise to the Middle English 'thurs' or 'thirs' (ðürs) -- a monster or spectre. Wycliffe used this term in a note on the term lamia in his 1382 translation of the Bible:
that is, a thirs or a beste hauende the bodi like a womman and horses feet. (note to Isaiah 34:14)
The Authorised Version of the Bible (1611) translated this as “screech owl”, or “night monster” which was retained in the Revised Version.
The word 'thurse' resurfaced in the 16th and 17th centuries to refer to hobgoblins. There were also hobthrush (adapted from hob + thurse) and hobthrust -- alternate terms for hobgoblins.
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Incenjucar
Legend
It may well be that Orc was actually a place, considering some of the ways its used, or so my personal theory goes. Perhaps the birthplace of generic humanoid monsters, as opposed to demons in hell, or spirits in the woods.
Thanks for the in-depth info, Prime. Can't wait til I can take my Mythology class now.
Thanks for the in-depth info, Prime. Can't wait til I can take my Mythology class now.
