Which one is better at Epic Levels - Wizard or Sorcerer

[dreaded_beast]

I've always found the increased spells per day interesting for the Sorcerer, but always balked at the limited amount of spells they can know.

I think I have always preferred the Wizard because one of the cool things about wizards, in my opinion, is that you can find new spells and add them to your collection.

Anyways, what do you folks think are the pros and cons of being an Epic level Wizard or Sorcerer when compared to each other?

 

[Pax]

Sorcerors are not about the extra spells-per-day; they are about the <b>tactical</b> flexibility. The price of admission is their limited numbr of spells known ... IOW, the loss of Strategic Adaptability.

Consider, you see: in the long run, compared to a Specialist Wizard and assuming the Sorceror's CHA is equal to the Wizard's INT ... the sorceror will only have ONE extra spell per day of each spell level.

With that said ... generally, sorcerors and wizards compare nicely, in terms of spellcasting. Sorcerors lose out badly on skills, and are a bit behind WRT feats.

But overall, they're reasonably balanced with each otehr. I, peronally, prefer Sorcerors for the style angle.

 

[Michael Tree]

I have mixed feelings. I prefer Int as a casting stat and like having a broad repetoire, but at extremely high levels I find having to prepare spells extremly annoying. Instead of having to look at a list of over 50 spells to see if I have a certain spell prepared, I would rather just remember a sorcerer's spell list.

Because I like flexibility so much, I would choose a sorcerer and then take a prestige class that gives extra spells known, like the Cabalist from the S&S Guide to Sorcerers and Wizards, the Witch Priest in the Witch's Handbook by Green Ronin, or the Eldrich Master from Dragon magazine.

 

[Wish]

Because the question was specifically about Epic levels, I'm going to have to go with wizard. Wizards are INT casters, so are going to have much higher Spellcraft scores - critical to casting Epic spells. Further, tactical flexibility is not as big a deal when you can throw 60+ spells every day. You're not going to run out, and can prepare for multiple combat and non-combat roles. Also, the extra feats that a wizard gets at non-epic levels allows them to set up for some of the really gross Epic feats such as auto-quicken, multispell, and intensify spell. Finally, one of the Epic feats gives you higher level slots which you can fill with metamagiced spells - wizards can do that without the spontaneous casting penalties.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think that the feat issue is a wash.

Most PC Sorcerers will not stay as sorcerers for the first 20 levels. Most of them will join some PrC (precisely because they gain more abilities and do not lose any except those of their familiar, if they have one). Because of that, they will get just as many special abilities / feats as PC Wizards (and more if the Wizard does not go PrC as well).

With regard to skills, it is a matter of who cares that Wizards have more skills. Skills are the poor mans special abilities and there are few skills that cannot be emulated with spells. Most Sorcerers max out Spell Crafting, just like Wizards do.

It all comes down to the spells and the magic items.

Wizards will load up on items which support their weaknesses, lack of the same spell multiple times per day. So, they might have, for example, multiple Scrolls of Stoneskin, just so that they can cast it 5 times per day if necessary. Wizards will diversify on their spells.

Sorcerers will also load up on items which support their weaknesses. For example, if the Sorcerer does not have the Feather Fall spell, he might have a Ring of Feather Fall, etc. Sorcerers are stuck with the spells they chose, but the diversity at high level of those is typically enough that they can handle most any situation.

With regard to non-specialized Wizards versus specialized Wizards, I think that the specialized Wizards have an advantage at low to mid levels (survival), the non-specialized Wizards have an advantage at higher levels (versatility). Hence, a specialized Wizard is often at a disadvantage to both Sorcerers and specialized Wizards at high level because there is always that school (or schools) that really do contain neat spells which that caster cannot use.


So, it is mostly a wash. The flexibility of Sorcerers at high level is still there. Wizards will still, even at high level, be forced to pick a substandard spell and not the exact one they want later in the day. However, the diverse spells of Wizards make it such that even a substandard spell (Stoneskin instead of Iron Body for a given situation since he already cast Iron Body) are still typically pretty darn good.

 

[Michael Tree]

double post.

 

[Michael Tree]

While as I mentioned above that I dislike having to prepare spells for high level casters, I do agree that wizards are better at epic levels than sorcerers.

The extra spells/day that sorcerers get become somewhat irrelevant, since by epic levels wizards will already have far more spells/day than they will ever cast. In addition, wizards and sorcerers gain the same number of 10+ level slots, and don't need to spend extra time applying metamagic. Finally, they can make glorious use of Quicken spell, especially for lower level utility spells and no-save spells. Add in a couple Improved Metamagic feats, and you have true nastiness. Wizards also have a minor advantage with epic spells, since their Int bonuses to Knowledge(arcana) are much higher.

Wizards have a great advantage with making magical items, because of their potentially unlimited number of spells known. If you take the Master Staff feat and fill a staff with your most commonly used spells, you can prepare more esoteric spells and swap them out for staff spells if needed (or vice versa). This is especially nice in 3.5, since staves use the caster level and save DC of the person using them. Mind you, sorcerers can use the same trick to gain more spells known.

 

[gfunk]

Because the question was specifically about Epic levels, I'm going to have to go with wizard. Wizards are INT casters, so are going to have much higher Spellcraft scores - critical to casting Epic spells.

I agree with this 100%. Personally, I prefer to play sorcerers over wizards because I find most arcane spells to be useless or of limited utility -- obviating the need for a diverse range of spells.

However, if you are going deep into epic levels (say Levels 25+) Wizards are clearly the superior mechanical choice. The Spellcraft Epic Spell mechanic really weakens Sorcerers (since Int was probably one of their dump stats).

Furthermore, the ability to Quicken spells at higher levels and the ability to cast more than one of these, via Multispell, makes a Wizard a much better choice than Sorcerer at Epic Levels.

 

[Cyraneth]

Furthermore, the ability to Quicken spells at higher levels and the ability to cast more than one of these, via Multispell, makes a Wizard a much better choice than Sorcerer at Epic Levels.

Although, if you go really high epic (say, level 32+), the sorcerer can compensate for that with the Automatic Quicken Spell epic feat.

- Cyraneth

 

[Pax]

Because the question was specifically about Epic levels, I'm going to have to go with wizard. Wizards are INT casters, so are going to have much higher Spellcraft scores - critical to casting Epic spells.

Generally speaking, I wouldn't expect a wizard to have more than a 10-point lead in Spellcraft, compared to sorcerors, until deeply-Epiclevels (say, 50+) ... and even then, the sorceror will probably have an entirely sufficient Spellcraft score to meet all their needs. ^_^

Further, tactical flexibility is not as big a deal when you can throw 60+ spells every day. You're not going to run out, and can prepare for multiple combat and non-combat roles.

And at Epic levels, you start seeing yoru bottom-level spells, well ... drop off the bottom end of usefulness. Seriously. Any spell which is, say, 23 levels below your ECL, is probably not going to be terribly useful.

Also, the extra feats that a wizard gets at non-epic levels allows them to set up for some of the really gross Epic feats such as auto-quicken, multispell, and intensify spell.

Not really. Scribe Scroll, and all of four bonus feats, compared to a Sorceror. Big deal, IMO.

Finally, one of the Epic feats gives you higher level slots which you can fill with metamagiced spells - wizards can do that without the spontaneous casting penalties.

That I'll grant you ... but, you only get so many OF those higher-level slots, which also magnifies the benefits of spontaneous casting.

I think that the feat issue is a wash.

Most PC Sorcerers will not stay as sorcerers for the first 20 levels. Most of them will join some PrC (precisely because they gain more abilities and do not lose any except those of their familiar, if they have one). Because of that, they will get just as many special abilities / feats as PC Wizards (and more if the Wizard does not go PrC as well).

I agree. Other than spell-swapping (which can be replaced by the same careful pre-planning that was used under 3.0 rules), and usually familiar-benefits progression ... it's usually not going to be costly for a sorceror to go with a PrC, or two. Or more.

The extra spells/day that sorcerers get become somewhat irrelevant, since by epic levels wizards will already have far more spells/day than they will ever cast.

Actually, the extra spells become irrelevant after about, oh, first level. ^_^

In addition, wizards and sorcerers gain the same number of 10+ level slots, and don't need to spend extra time applying metamagic. Finally, they can make glorious use of Quicken spell, especially for lower level utility spells and no-save spells.

Given some Autoquicken feats, Sorcerors can do the exact same thing WRT Quickened Spells.

Add in a couple Improved Metamagic feats, and you have true nastiness. Wizards also have a minor advantage with epic spells, since their Int bonuses to Knowledge(arcana) are much higher.

Improved Metamagic benefits sorcerors more than wizards, IMO, because metamagic benefits the ever-flexible Sorceror more than they benefit a wizard. ^_^

However, if you are going deep into epic levels (say Levels 25+) Wizards are clearly the superior mechanical choice. The Spellcraft Epic Spell mechanic really weakens Sorcerers (since Int was probably one of their dump stats).

Only dumb players use INT as a dump stat for their sorceror. No offense, mind.

Any Sorceror with a 12 intelligence, who cares for nothign but spellcasting, can maximise the three key spells needed to be the best they can be, including Epic spellcasting: Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge(Arcana). They'd only be behind in Intelligence bonus, much of which -- like the wizard -- will be from items, not themselves.

At 25th level, a dedicated wizard would, at that point, have no more than a 12-point advantage in intelligence, for a 6-point lead in Spellcraft -- because the Sorceror can have hte same +6 headband, and can also read the very same Tome of Clear Thought (+4-5 to Intelligence). The lead only comes from starting intelligence (18, versus 12), and level-increases (6 of them, through level 24).

Big deal.

Furthermore, the ability to Quicken spells at higher levels and the ability to cast more than one of these, via Multispell, makes a Wizard a much better choice than Sorcerer at Epic Levels.

Cha 21 ... Increased Spell Capacity (10)
Sor 23 ... Increased Spell Capacity (11)
Cha 24 ... Increased Spell Capacity (12)
Sor 26 ... Multispell
Cha 27 ... Autoquicken I (0-3)
Sor 29 ... Autoquicken II (4-6)
Cha 30 ... Autoquicken III (7-9)

That gives the sorceror 12th level spell slots, one Multispell, and every spell they cast is quickened. And the Wizard couldn't do that ANY faster than the Sorceror could. ^_^