Where do fiends come from? (Cosmology)

[Cheiromancer]

I'm having trouble making a "war in heaven" scenario compatible with the monster manual. There are templates for fallen angels (heck, I've even written some myself), but they don't produce specific types of fiends; they tend to produce unique individuals. Which is fine, but not if the premise is that all fiends were once celestials.

The problem is that different kinds of fiends don't correspond in any obvious way with different kinds of celestials. And groups of demons and devils don't resemble each other very much either. Well, except that balors and pit fiends have some vague resemblance with each other (and with efreet) and succubi and erinyes also seem to correspond. Oh, and imps and quasits are analogues of each other.

Now, maybe *all* celestials of a particular type fell, thereby obscuring matters. E.g. suppose there once was a kind of angel called "thones" but they all fell and became horned devils. If there were any unfallen thrones, their resemblance to horned devils would be obvious, but there isn't, so it isn't obvious that horned devils were once angels. The explanation could work the other way; you could argue that no lantern archons fell in the Great Revolt, and that is why there are no similar fiends (or maybe that's where will-o-wisps come from). That explanation might work in one or two cases, but it is unsatisfying as a general explanation.

You could also say that some races of devils or demons were created after the fall, or already existed in the lower planes (the alien-looking ice devils might be an example). But these are exceptions to the general rule that fiends are fallen celestials, and I want a mechanism to support this rule.

Now rather than say that a celestial of type X becomes a fiend of type Y when it falls, I've thought about saying that they become fiends of a similar hit dice/CR. A highly advanced trumpet archon, an advanced planetar or a solar might all become a standard (or modestly advanced) pit fiend. But why would different kinds of celestials become the same kind of fiend? What makes the stats and appearance of *that* fiend so attractive that these celestials would lose their forms and acquire the form of that particular fiend?

One thing that devils have and angels do not is immunity to fire and poison. Suppose their initial place of refuge/exile/imprisonment was "the lake of fire," an evil, poisonous elemental plane of fire. Suppose also that in the early days of creation the forms of outsiders were more mutable than they are today. Then they might choose to drop their angelic forms and adopt ones that could survive the harsh local conditions. Since the lake of fire is permeated with evil, the new forms would be hideous and evil-looking.... here's where my reasoning breaks down. A trumpet archon, a planetar and a solar might all find it valuable to acquire the shape of a fiend, but what could possible make them acquire the form of the same kind of fiend? Maybe the leader of their host (or some division within the host) acquired that form, and so all the angels following that leader did, too?

The particular mythos I am trying to make work (from the Tales of Wyre story hour) had a second revolt after the one in heaven which resulted in the formation of demons. So it would be nice if whatever explanation works for falling angels => devils also worked for devils => demons.

The myth is from a monotheistic religion. The principal players are a lawful good solar deity named Oronthon, the nameless leader of the rebels (known only as the Adversary), and Demogorgon, an enigmatic figure who is vastly more powerful than the other demon princes, and who greatly precedes them; he is also called the Ancient One. So explanations involving divine intervention have a small cast of characters to call on. And the Adversary started out in heaven, while Demogorgon was in the abyss; the transformation of angels into devils is especially tricky, since there were no lawful evil deities on stage.

So I'm kinda stuck, but am open to suggestions. Do folks have any ideas on the mechanics behind the War in Heaven (TM)?

 

[Quickleaf]

I never was a big fan of the fiends/angels as presented in D&D. Too many special abilities to keep track of. That said, if you are going to use the ones in the monstrous manual, you might want to match them according to CR. For example, here's a comparison between an Astral deva (CR 14), a Nalfeshness (CR 14) and Gelugon (CR 13). The approach I've taken is very much Ebberon-esque, that is, designing the story up from the rules. In this case, I had the Astral deva (good) fall and become Nalfeshnee (CE). You certainly could change this around any way you wanted - this is just an example.

The First Sundering: Astral Devas Fall and Become Nalfeshnee
During the first sundering, the astral devas became masters of battle, tempering their newly constructed blades against each other. When the astral devas loyal to the Dark One were routed, and the war ended, only then did the full extend of the astral deva's savagery become apparent. They committed terrible atrocities against one another. Indeed, the Celestial Host thought to ban them all from heaven, though the good-aligned devas recanted their ways and swore off savagery. The fallen devas too were disgused at their own capacity for savagery, but would not repent. When the fallen were cast from heaven, the celestial host ruled that as their appetite for bloodshed and power increased, so too would they grow bloated and fat even as their wings, their metaphorical connection to heaven, became stunted and shriveled. Though they were deformed the fallen deva also became stronger, smarter, and wiser. They learned to survive outside of heaven's pearly gates. They called themselves the nalfeshnee (meaning "great in stature" in Celestial/Infernal), taking pride in their curse. The nalfeshnee became famous for their ability to project the battles they had fought onto the minds of those around them (their smite ability). If they would suffer from the memories that haunted them of the first sundering, then so would everyone around them.

 

[greywulf]

I'm a firm believer that form derives from function, especially in the case of angels and demons.

In other words, their shape and appearance is wholely derived from the souls and dark (or light) thoughts, nothing more.

Shame on you for trying to apply evolutionary logic to heavenly bodies!

 

[domino]

Well, when a mommy and daddy fiend love each other very much...

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think I have something that might work.

In Anger of Angels Sean K Reynolds allows angels (and fiends) to reproduce by sacrificing class levels; one or more angels invests personal energy which is shaped into a new angel of the same type as the parent(s).

Let's call this mechanic (which IMHO needs some fine tuning) the "rite of procreation". A similar mechanic could be called the "rite of adaptation"- it allows one outsider to acquire the form (species) of another. The main restriction is that there couldn't be a net improvement to a monster's CR (so it has to sacrifice HD or class levels), but let's leave the mechanics to be worked out later.

No special skill or feat is required to use the rite of procreation, so neither should the rite of adaptation require anything special. I would say you need a feat to acquire the form of a totally new kind of fiend. A few of the specifics of the fiend could be specified by the wielder, but a lot would be random, or have its own internal logic (like Quickleaf suggests; an individual's appetite for bloodshed and power might make him grow bloated, etc). I don't think that the first fallen Astral Deva to become a Nalfeshnee *wanted* to look like an obese ape/boar, but those details were out of the Deva's control.

And once an angel becomes a fiend (probably an advanced form of the fiend; double the standard hit dice), it could make other fiends of the same type with the rite of procreation, allow other fallen angels to convert to that type with the rite of adaptation, and so on.

Another idea; outsiders can't be raised, but maybe a rite could collect the life energy and reincarnate them as a fiend of lesser CR. It would require that there be at least one example of that type of fiend already in existence, but would provide a way of making new fiends once you had an exemplar. If damned souls are considered outsiders, that could be a way of starting them up the chain of being. Call it the rite of revival.

The rite of revival could have bad side effects; permanent (or centuries long) amnesia, for one. This allows the flavor of the no-resurrection rule to be retained; revived outsiders are pretty much brand new creatures. A rite of revival could possibly grab the "wrong" kind of soul energy; a dead pit fiend might be reborn as a moderately advanced ice devil, though he might not remember his previous identity for some time.

So in the early days after the Great Revolt, there would be only a few fiends of the kinds listed in the monster manual, representing those fallen angels mad or daring enough to seek to adopt a form more suited to their new home. The rite of revival, performed many times, reforms those rebel angels who died in the course of the Great Revolt; they appear not as angels, though, but as devils. To curry favor with their superiors many angels will undergo the rite of adaptation and assume the form their superior has put on. Some forms suited for particular tasks will be developed; each developer will be the progenitor of a new kind of fiend... or, failing that, would be a unique kind of fiend.

And so on. As time goes on the proportion of true (monster manual) fiends will increase, but there would be no new source of fallen angels, so they would gradually become quite rare. The form of a new outsider has to be appropriate to the plane (i.e. be originated by a plane-specific feat), and so fallen angels cannot use the rites to make others of the same form; while in Hell they can only make devils.

Similarly if any devils were to wander to the Abyss, they would have to develop new forms appropriate to that place; the old rites wouldn't work. I don't know if the Abyss was colonized by fallen angels at the same time as Hell was, or if it was colonized by devils, or if it was colonized by fallen angels who had been in Hell but were kicked out, or what. It doesn't matter. Just that whatever non-demons arrived in the Abyss had to invent demonic forms to use with the rites.

I think this is the mechanism I want. A feat to acquire the form of a new kind of fiend, and three "rites" that allow for an increase in numbers of that fiend; one that makes a brand new fiend, one that changes an existing outsider into that kind of fiend, and one that restores a dead outsider to life as that kind of fiend; procreation, adaptation and revival, respectively.

This mechanism allows there to be a finite variety of devils and demons that do not correspond at all closely to the kinds of celestials or to each other, but is consistent with the claim that all devils and demons were once celestials.

What do folks think?

 

[DanMcS]

In my head, the angels that fall DO tend to become unique individuals. Titivilius, Grazzt, whoever, were originally angels, and fell, and assumed their unique appearances after millenia of self-shaping and environmental shaping. A bunch of them that were follower types became undifferentiated fiends, of the type that eventually became balors and pit fiends.

In the old planescape monster manuals, it describes how demons and devils fill their ranks. Basically, they gather larva, which are the souls of deceased evildoers, and shape them into new fiends by torment and dark magic.

This is how you get a plethora of fiends that are all of the same type. They create new fiends based on modelling from the old. These shapes DO come from fallen angels- there is a unique fallen named Glabrezu, and one named Vrock, and so on, on whom the eponymous fiends are modelled.

So there is your answer- most of them are not fallen angels at all, but were "born" fiends, and were shaped by their masters into useful forms.

If you want a way that a large number of angels could fall and have the same form, perhaps a number of them fell, all following one leader in the revolt, and took on the form he chose as a badge of solidarity. Hezrou was the archangel of prowess, and when he fell, swayed by the adversary, many in his service fell, and took on his visage in respect to their leader.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think we are on the same wavelength, DanMcS.

The rite of adaptation could be applied to larvae to become the very weakest form of devils; what Planescape describes could be that very rite.

I would say that the unique devils all have their own special feat that grants them their form. "Millenia of self-shaping and environmental shaping" is good flavor for it. Which means that one of the current feats listed in their description is a bonus feat. Doesn't matter. Anyways, fiends like Grazzt and Titivilus are too strong to have followers with the same form; the jump in CR is too much for the majority of the fallen to manage via the rites.

But fallen like Vrock and Glabrezu had forms that were accessible to other fallen, and so by the rites the forms spread. Your example with Hezrou is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of. IIRC, in the old monster manual "Balor" was not a type of demon, but the name of a particular demon. He might be the original demon of that type; the other "Type VI" demons acquired their form from him via the rites.

What sort of advantage should there be in having an Archetypical form? I am using it as a mechanical device so that there can be other fiends of that same form, but there should be something in it for the fiend who took the feat in the first place. But not too much advantage, or every fiend would try to develop an archetypical form of their own.

Maybe a bonus on skill checks vs other fiends of their form? Or something stronger?

 

[Pyrex]

Another idea from left field:

Outsiders as manifest ideological constructs.

A vrock isn't so much a unique being, instead being more a semi-autonomous shard of coalesced Chaotic Evil.

Under this interpretation, the war between Heaven and Hell isn't so much it's own war as a metaphysical reflection of the struggles of mortals.

 

[The Serge]

We just wrapped up our first publication at Dicefreaks, The Gates of Hell. Therein, we provide information on the various falls among the angelic hosts. Some, like Apollyon (who is not featured in TGoH) fell so long ago he has always been thought of as a demon prince. Others, like Semyaza, was a Voyeur (our spin on the Watcher angels of Biblical and Hebrew gnostic tradition) and fell due to lust and interferring in mortal lives against the will of the gods. Then there was The Great Fall in which 1/3 of the angels from across the Realms Above (the upper planes) plummeted into the Depths Below (the lower planes). Among these were the likes of Astarte, Beelzebub, Belial, Eblis, and Moloch (four of these eventually became Lords of Hell).

At Dicefreaks, we do not assume that angels and fiends are the same. Nor do we assume a shared origin for all fiends. The Gates of Hell features an origin specifically for devils (born from the blood of The Overlord of Hell when he fell), while we will have an origin for demons in Horrors of The Abyss and for daemons in The Depths of Despair. So too will angels have an origin story (or stories) in A Light From On High. Since we don't presume a shared origin (not to suggest that some origins won't put forth such a contention), we have a fallen angel template in Chapter Four of TGoH.

Good luck and have fun.

 

[Cheiromancer]

You've finished the rerelease of GoH? Good job!

[edit] It seems that chapters 2-8 are not yet available for download. I shall wait patiently... [/edit]