D&D General When We Were Wizards: Review of the Completed Podcast!

[Snarf Zagyg]

Four years ago, screenwriter, Adam Turner and Dungeons & Dragons® historian, Paul Stormberg, embarked on a project about Gary Gygax, D&D®, and TSR Hobbies, the company he founded to publish the game. During the course of this project they recorded their ongoing conversations, not only about the cultural impact of the game, but the profound personal impact it had on Gary, his family, friends, and colleagues. The result is an unprecedented 14-episode limited series podcast that tells the story with the voices of the people who were there, through never before released interviews, personal letters, and internal company documents.

The last podcast in the 14-episode series has been posted, so I can now provide a full review. You can find the prior post, including the youtube trailer, here.

Snarf's Review of When We Were Wizards: An Oral History of Dungeons & Dragons

If you read my posts, you know that I literally can't get enough history of roleplaying games in general, and D&D specifically. So when I found out that there was a podcast, an oral history, of D&D ... I was in like Flynn. Or, um, a more current reference that people might actually get. I love podcasts, and I love history, so this should be right up my alley!

This review will start with my recommendation (the overall review). Then it's going to discuss, briefly, what the podcast is about. Then the third and final part will have my thoughts- general opinions about the podcast, etc. To the extent a podcast about events from decades ago can contain spoilers, this will be the part to avoid.

A. Should you listen to this podcast?

Yes. 100%. Smash that subscribe button. I was looking forward to the podcast, and it exceeded my expectations. The only issue I had with it was that I started listening before the whole 14-episode series was completed. So I hated that I had to wait for the next episode. We live in the Netflix future, I demand everything right now all at once! Luckily, all fourteen episodes are out, and you don't have to worry about.

If you've read any of my posts before, you know that I am familiar with a great deal of early D&D history. I may not be a D&D historian, but I can cosplay as one. If you are at all interested in the history of D&D, this is an absolute must-listen. It doesn't contain very much in the way of brand-new information, but it does present a compelling narrative.

About that compelling narrative... even if you're not that interested in early D&D history, this might be worth your time. While it hits the major historical moments, I would argue that this isn't a history of D&D per se so much as it is a narrative about Gary Gygax; the story of how someone can finally find the success that they had always dreamed of, and in finding that success, lose themselves.

So I will give this an unreserved recommendation with three caveats (none of them are reasons not to listen, just things to be aware of):
1. It's compelling, but I will recommend Game Wizards (the book) as a companion if you want more history. There were a few small factual issues that I noticed in the podcast.
2. Oral histories are awesome, but as I have previously went into detail about, there are issues with oral histories. Remember that people today recalling events of the past may not be perfectly recalling those events.
3. Finally, while I think the podcast does a great job of guiding the listener, there are a few time jumps for the narrative that might confuse people who aren't familiar with the timeline.

Overall: GREAT PODCAST. MUST LISTEN FOR ANYONE INTERESTED IN D&D.


B. What is this podcast really about?

Let me start by saying what this podcast isn't about- if you are looking for a podcast that carefully examines the evolution of D&D's rules, or D&D as a product specifically, or goes into detail about RPGS... this isn't it. Instead, I'd say that this is about D&D (TSR) from the inception through the ouster of Gygax, with a particular focus on Gygax.

Specifically, while the podcasts hits all the major beats that you'd expect - Satanic Panic, Brothers Blume, Arneson/Gygax, and so on, it really delves into the rise and fall of Gygax. Don't get me wrong- there are a lot of other great historical issues and voices brought to bear (Rose Estes is always a treat), but the recurrent motif in the podcast is how Gygax changed due to his fame, and how his hubris was, repeatedly, his undoing. Sure, there are other villains (Kevin Blume, anyone?) that show up, but Gygax is shown to be a person that success changed, and that change and his own arrogance destroyed him. A Greek tragedy.

Again, that's not all there is in the podcast. You will hear a lot of people discuss the history of D&D and TSR, and it is a real treat to hear them. Of course, some of them aren't with us (Gygax being a prominent example) so they have to use a voice actor; I would say that they picked a good one for Gygax.


C. Okay, what about some more Snarf-ian subjective observations? (Caution, may contain slight spoilers)

Let me start by acknowledging what is absent- the podcast does not do a great job of explaining how Gygax did such amazing things and worked so hard in the 1970s making D&D successful. We do get a lot of people talking about how much they admire and respect him, but without that foundation which I found lacking, it always felt a little off.

I would say that the most interesting and revealing parts of the podcast for me were about the "Hollywood years" of Gygax. Many of us know about that time, and we often joke about it, but the podcast really made it apparent how damaging "Hollywood Gary" was to TSR. The profligate spending and, well, everything else. In addition, there is a lot (A LOT) of Flint Dillie.

The podcast also has a lot of Gygax's first wife (Mary Jo), which helps bring some interesting context to the earlier years that isn't often discussed.

Next, there is great coverage of how it felt to work at TSR during that time. I don't want to give anything away, but ... there are stories. One of the most interesting things is the continual dynamic that Kevin Blume was the bad guy, TSR employees thought if Gygax was more involved he would help them, but Gygax was not interested in running the company- he was happy to let Kevin do it.

There is also the issue of royalties, which becomes increasingly important as the podcast goes on. Gygax's choices early on with TSR, and his demands later, were a major cause of TSR's problems.

Finally, while it can't speak to later times, the podcast really shows that Gygax's ouster was inevitable. Lorraine Williams comes out looking pretty good, and then when you hear of the proffered settlement that Gygax rejected, you will be shocked. I guarantee it.

I should mention that if you are expecting a hagiography of any kind- this podcast it not that. Reality has a way of tearing down heroes. So, without further elaboration, here's Snarf's Post-Podcast Stock Watch:

Stock Down
Kevin Blume. Not to dogpile on the guy, but the only way he could come out worse is if he was twirling his mustache while setting an orphanage on fire.

Gygax. I have to admit, I thought I knew all the Gygax warts. So I was expecting a stock steady. But hearing in painstaking detail just how badly he messed things up in the '80s? Yeah, that's a stock down. Oh, and there is an anecdote involving Gygax and Rob Kuntz (with Gygax dropping by his house) that is just heartbreaking.

Stock Steady
Brian Blume. I normally refer to them as just the Brothers Blume, but the podcast made me understand fully that Brian was just a nice guy in over his head. Not malicious.

Stock Up
Lorraine Williams. She seems like the only adult in the room, and she saved TSR. Further, when you hear what she offered Gygax and that he rejected, it's impossible to see her as a villain. At least, at this time.

The Employees of TSR. I can't imagine working in that environment, and I am thankful for the products you made.

 

[Iosue]

More to come later, but I’ll say my biggest gripe with the podcast was they had so many people contributing in their own words, a true oral history, but they often don’t announce who’s talking after the first time they speak in tan episode. Some people have pretty distinct voices, but there were so many times I had no idea who was talking.

 

[Parmandur]

Brian Blume. I normally refer to them as just the Brothers Blume, but the podcast made me understand fully that Brian was just a nice guy in over his head. Not malicious.

Yeah, Brian really comes out of this narrative looking sympathetic. Gygax personal theory thst he propounded various places was that things would have been better if Don Kaye had been around longer, and maybe so. But after this podcast, I think even without Kaye things would have been better if Gygax had remained attentive to Brian, Maru Jo, and not gone to Hollywood.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

More to come later, but I’ll say my biggest gripe with the podcast was they had so many people contributing in their own words, a true oral history, but they often don’t announce who’s talking after the first time they speak in tan episode. Some people have pretty distinct voices, but there were so many times I had no idea who was talking.

I mostly was able to follow it, but I completely understand. Luckily, many of the voices were distinctive (as you note) but there were a few times I was like, WUT.

On the other hand, I always knew when Gygax was speaking. Gotta say, that was a great choice for a voice actor. He really captured an emotional depth in there, especially in the later parts. The ... how do I put this ... combination of authority and almost pleading.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah, Brian really comes out of this narrative looking sympathetic. Gygax personal theory thst he propounded various places was that things would have been better if Don Kaye had been around longer, and maybe so. But after this podcast, I think even without Kaye things would have been better if Gygax had remained attentive to Brian, Maru Jo, and not gone to Hollywood.

I think so, but I also think Hollywood was just a manifestation of what was already happening to him.

That story about going to Kuntz's house. Man, that lingered with me. The need for acknowledgment combined with the lack of self-awareness.

 

[TiQuinn]

Thoughts (and spoilers):

The star of the podcast to my mind is Rose Estes. She turned out to be the interview of a lifetime for this topic. I know, I know…you have to take every individual with a certain grain of salt, they all have their perspective, but when talking to a bunch of Midwesterners, the Minnesota or Wisconsin niceness can often get in the way of speaking plainly and clearly.

Rose isn’t that.

She’s got thoughts, good, bad, in the middle, about nearly everyone, and as one of the few women involved in the company, her perspective and access to Mary Jo Powell, gives a take on the whole affair that I don’t think we’ve heard before.

I think it’s somewhat unstated but it’s lurking in the background - Lake Geneva was the perfect location in which to entrap people looking for the dream job as a game designer, which was very much NOT A THING at the time, and effectively stranding them somewhere where they were beholden to the company for their very survival because it wasn’t Chicago, or Milwaukee or the Twin Cities. These folks were working for peanuts and being subjected to treatment that, had they been in a larger employment area…they would’ve had options. They could’ve pushed back. But Gygax and the Blumes had a lot of people over a barrel because many of them moved out to Lake Geneva where there were no other job prospects, and they took full advantage of that.

The one thing I think the podcast could’ve done better was letting the listener know who was speaking at various turns. The actor for Gygax was easily recognizable, as was Ernie and Rose’s distinctive voices but a lot of others really got lost in the shuffle, and it would’ve helped to state a name up front before switching to a statement, which they often did not do.

But all in all, fantastic podcast. A testament to how one could be in the right place at the right time and hit the right pitch to get a home run…but still lose the game because you forget that being a founder and being a businessperson are two totally different things. I’m very hesitant to call Gygax a genius. In fact, I come away from this more than ever feeling like he was lucky and he saw an opportunity, but he wouldn’t have been there without Arneson, Megarry and others, and he most certainly didn’t have the genius to keep it going. Nor did he really want to. His creativity was one big burst, and then after that, he felt like he was owed everything else that came after. What he had was a cult of personality. It’s telling that his wife felt like she lost the children in the divorce and while again, not stated, but I can see why - you have the housebound dutiful religious wife and you have the funny dad who likes to play games and has money and just seems more fun. If you’re a kid or a teenager, whose side are you likely to be favorable to? Even at the end, most of the interviewees are willing to acknowledge Gygax as a bad businessman but as someone they want to play with, someone they like, and that was enough to elevate him above Williams - who was just a businesswoman, an executive, maybe what Gary would’ve called “one of the stooges”, trying to save the ship from sinking under the anchor of its founder.

 

[Lazybones]

I really enjoyed it. The reenactment of the board meeting where Gary was ousted was intense. What struck me was the extent to which Gary
"in power" actively sabotaged other people in order to advance his own interests; this seemed especially tragic after what he did early on to bring people together to advance the nascent hobby of role-playing games. Replacing B1 in the Basic Set with B2 (which had him as an author, so bumped his royalties at Mike Carr's expense) was just one example of this. You can't help but feel at the end that his fall was his own doing.

 

[Riley]

Loved this podcast series. They did a fabulous job crafting an engaging narrative about office politics.

And they presented a convincing case that Gary Had To Go. It was quite literally him or the company.

And Lorraine saved the company - and by extension the game. No one can know the fate of D&D if TSR had defaulted/entered bankruptcy in the mid-80’s.

Excellent and compelling.

I do agree that the evolution and history of Dungeons & Dragons itself is rather neglected in the podcast. Whither Gen Con? Whither the coming and going of the Gygax-penned classic adventures, and the rise of the other authors who took up the creative reins? The transition from sandboxes and funhouses to narrative adventures? The novels, Deagonlance, and Ravenloft?

There are whole other, nerdier oral histories still to be told there. While the creators are still with us.

But still: this narrative does what it does, excellently.

 

[Clint_L]

I concur that this is a must-listen podcast for anyone interested in the history of this industry, and obviously TSR and Gygax in particular. I pretty much concur with everything Snarff mentions in the OP, and especially that the voice actor for Gygax really nails it. There are a few points where they have actual audio of Gygax, and it's not a jarring difference.

Yeah, Hollywood Gary is not an appealing character. And the interviews really showed how much he was in it for himself, by that point. There's a massive irony in that he was ultimately undone by the same contract that TSR used to screw others out of any ownership of IP created while working for the company. Gary himself signed it on the assumption that, since in his mind, he was TSR, it didn't matter. So when push came to shove, he tried to treat the same contract that he had wielded like a hammer against everyone else as if it was a joke that didn't apply to him. The courts saw differently.

So really, this was a story of hubris. And not just by Gygax.

Gotta add: Stock Down: Arneson. The podcast really emphasized what Game Wizards had already hinted at: nice man and brilliant ideas guy but terrible at execution. He'd have been a nightmare to be partners with, and I don't blame Gygax and the Blumes for wanting out of that partnership. Though the way they went about it was horrible.

The podcast reveals that, right near the founding of TSR, Dave Megarry pushed to expand the board of directors to include some business professionals, only for Gygax and the Blumes to overrule him. The history of TSR and D&D would have been a lot different had they listened.

Also, the underlying misogyny of TSR really cost them. Most shocking to me was the complete lack of respect shown to Rose Estes, even after she basically single-handedly created the immensely profitable Endless Quest line. She was way more loyal than TSR deserved, and they basically shoved her out the door.

Finally: yeah, Lorraine Williams. She's always been cast as this ogre/jezebel figure, but that's not what you get from these interviews, or from the written records cited in Game Wizards. She mostly comes off as competent and fair. TSR was in complete meltdown when she came onboard - totally dysfunctional and weeks from insolvency - and she kept it afloat. She basically got control of the company because a lot of people preferred working with her to working with Gygax, and the podcast makes it very clear why.

 

[MNblockhead]

Loved the podcast and loved @Snarf Zagyg's synopsis. I've already read every book I could find on the history of the hobby and have backed and watched three different documentaries (Dreams in Gary's Basement, Secrets of Blackmoor, and Eye of the Beholder: The Art of Dungeons & Dragons). But the interviews in the podcast provide the best oral history. As others have stated, the interview snippets with Rose Estes were a treat and really presented a new perspective. The makers of a 14 hour podcast just have more latitude to include more oral history than a 1-2 hour film. The Dreams in Gary's Basement and Secrets of Blackmoor have some nice snippets, but short snippets of a sentence or two are all they can fit into the time available for a film.

I also really appreciated the interview segments with Flint Dillie. I read his biography (The Gamesmaster: My Life in the '80s Geek Culture Trenches with G.I. Joe, Dungeons & Dragons, and The Transformers), but I found reading it a chore. I ended up skimming through most of it to pick out the gossipy little morsels with him talking about his time Gary. Listening to him talk, within the structure of this podcast's narrative, however, was informative and entertaining.

The voice re-enactments were excellent. Gary's voice actor was already called out, but I would also like to shout out the voice actor who portrayed Lorraine Williams, reading from court transcripts. I don't have anything to compare to determine how much she sounded like Lorraine, unlike Gary for which we have plenty of video and audio to compare, but it felt right.

I would love to see a TV portrayal of this. A Netflix miniseries on the life of Gary Gygax. But it won't replace the magic of the interviews with the surviving members of early TSR sharing their memories and impressions.