When can a Dire Lion use Rake?

[Dracuwulf]

Hello,

I'm trying to figure out what Rake is for. Here's a dire lions attacks:

2 claws +13 melee (1d6+7) and bite +7 melee (1d8+3)

Here is the description of its special ability, rake

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +12 melee, damage 1d6+3.

These two other abilities mention rake:

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dire lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Pounce (Ex): If a dire lion charges, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

questions:
1) is Rake an attack that can be used at any time, or only during Pounce and Improved Grab?

2) During Pounce, do the two rake attacks replace any of its normal attacks, or does the dire lion get 2 claws, a bite, and 2 rakes?

3) Whats the advantage of using rake in the improved grab case? It seems that the lion can use a claw and get better results- why does it mention that if it wins a grapple check it "can" rake- is that a free attack?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Arr, when gardening, matey!

 

[nhl_1997]

Hopefully, someone will correct me if I am incorrect, but.....

A rake attack typically depends on the creature hitting with both claw attacks. This means that it needs to actually attack with both claws (either through full attack or through a pounce.)

If both claw attacks hit, then the rake attack is an extra attack made with no penalties.


(edit).... fully reread the original question now.

Whenever the lion hits with it's bite attack, attempt a grapple via the Improved Grapple special quality.

As for the charge, I really have no idea what it means by "including two rake attacks." Personally, I would say that the charge includes a full attack, and if both claw attacks hit, then a single rake attack can take place.

Obviously, I'm struggling, I shall remain silent now, 'til someone corrects me.....

 

[Scion]

SRD:
Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.


So, you can only use rake during a grapple.

Except that pounce is a special case, one is also able to rake.

As for the last people disagree, but I read it to say that you pounce, make all attacks plus rake, and then if the grapple works then get another set of rakes.

Hope that helps!

 

[Alpha Polaris]

Hopefully, someone will correct me if I am incorrect, but.....

If both claw attacks hit, then the rake attack is an extra attack made with no penalties.

I think you mistook "rake" for "rend", because what you are describing is the system for the rend special ability, except that IIRC, rend does not allow an extra attack, it does extra damages.

 

[nhl_1997]

I think you mistook "rake" for "rend", because what you are describing is the system for the rend special ability, except that IIRC, rend does not allow an extra attack, it does extra damages.

Thank you

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

SRD:
Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

The bold section is important.

A dire lion charges.
Because of the pounce ability, it can make a full attack including two rakes. So, claw, claw, bite, rake, rake.
If the bite hits, improved grab kicks in.
Improved Grab allows it to start a grapple as a free action and pull its opponent into its square. (As long as the opponent is a smaller size category than the lion).
If it succeeds at the grapple check, it is grappling. Rake would ordinarily kick in--except for two things: 1. The dire lion has already made two rake attacks in this round. 2. Since it didn't begin the round grappling, the bolded portion of the rake description means it cannot make the rake attacks for being in a grapple. (The ones it already made are a function of pounce rather than grappling).

On the next round, the dire lion can make a full attack starting with two rake attacks (it started its round grappling) and then may either make a grapple check to deal bite damage (or to pin) or, if its foe is unconscious or dead because of the rakes, may continue its full attack on anyone who happens to be next to it.

 

[Scion]

SRD:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dire lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

The highlighted section is the general rake description being overridden by the specific lion example

Much in the same way that the pounce ability also overrides the general rake ability.

This guy is just plain full of exceptions!

As a note, this is the hags ability from the srd:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an annis must hit a Large or smaller opponent with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

note the missing sentence.

Either it was a bad job of putting in too much text, or it was meant to be an exception. As pounce is already an exception it seems that it could very well be that the lion is simply that big of monstrous guy.

 

[Thanee]

@Scion: While it is surely unclear enough for the Rake after Improved Grab view, you certainly do not get to use Rake twice in a round, if you Pounce and Improved Grab. It's still limited to two Rakes per round.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

I had the same problems with rake last year

I settled down by just adding 2 Rake attacks to the full-attack routine either when executing a charge (Rake + Pounce) or when starting the round in a grapple (Rake normal use).

I don't remember exactly, but I think the latter use doesn't necessarily require Improved Grab, but probably almost all monster would also have that.