What was the reason for Demihuman level and class limits in AD&D?

[joethelawyer]

Does anyone know why? The only thing I could think of was that Gygax and Co. wanted to make a human-centric world, and simply made a game mechanic which limited the power demihumans could achieve.

Thx

 

[Treebore]

Yeah, dwarves lived for centuries and elves lived for over 1,000 years, without the limitations "logic" would dictate that the elves had hundreds/thousands of their people well over 20th level.

So to allow for humans to have a chance, the limitations were imposed.

 

[Ariosto]

Yes, it was mainly thematic, because game balance among PCs could have been attained in other ways (as in 3E and 4E, for example). As things stand, class and level limits are the only really "hard wired" game-mechanical reason to choose a human in AD&D. So, if one were to remove them, then one might want to compensate in some way (such as "Method V" character generation from Unearthed Arcana). Depending on the setting, humans may retain advantages in acquisition of henchmen and hirelings -- but that seems likely to be undermined in a less human-centric milieu.

I think the saving-throw bonuses of dwarves might become very significant at high levels, and perhaps some other racial bonuses as well.

 

[Bumbles]

There is a reason stated in the 2E books as I recall. I don't recall one in the 1E books, but it is possible there is one there as well.

 

[Obryn]

Balance. I think it was kind of a backwards balance, given that it didn't come into play until you hit levels most PCs never reached, but that's about it.

Apart from having no level limits, humans in 1e got boned. Well, I suppose no other race could quality for an 18/00 Strength at the beginning of the game, but that's all I can come up with.

-O

 

[Treebore]

I guess no one read Dragon back in the old days. The only "balance" they were worried about was having 1,000's of 1,000+ year old elves, all being 20th level in several classes, ruling the world. So to "balance" out the edge such longevity would give the elven race, and to lesser extent the Dwarves, they did the racial limits. Then to be "fair" they put limits on the other "demi human" races.

Then in UA they allowed higher racial level limits if they had super high attributes.

The racial advantages actually became pretty meaningless in high level games, because by then most parties had ways to see in darkness, etc... even when human. So to limit them at high levels due to their racial advantages was pretty meaningless. It was to make Greyhawk being a "human centric" world rather than elven or dwarven make sense.

After all, why wouldn't a race that can live a couple of thousand years not have a few hundred multi class elven demigods walking around being level 20 in 3 classes each?

So it was to have the world make sense that humans would have a position of eminence rather than servitude.

 

[Obryn]

I guess no one read Dragon back in the old days. The only "balance" they were worried about was having 1,000's of 1,000+ year old elves, all being 20th level in several classes, ruling the world. So to "balance" out the edge such longevity would give the elven race, and to lesser extent the Dwarves, they did the racial limits. Then to be "fair" they put limits on the other "demi human" races.

Are you honestly saying the fact that humans otherwise have zero advantages as a PC race has absolutely nothing to do with this decision?

That seems a bit rose-colored to me.

-O

 

[Tigh]

Title level

First: what may be facts
Second: my conjectures
Third: conclusion that I wish to share with OP​

First: what may be facts

at 11th level a Wizard earns the name Wizard
at 9th level a fighter earn the title Lord
at 8th level a cleric used to become Patriarch.

At 11th level a Wizard has the same chance to hit AC zero as a 9th level fighter and an 8th level cleric.
It takes a Wizard 11 levels to attack as a SuperHero in old Chainmail: fantasy.
it takes a Warrior 9, etcetera.



Second: my conjectures

I believe that Title level was originally seen as the end goal. If this is the case a demi human with a lower level cap, actually has an easier journey to achieve title level. To really earn the title of Dwarf or Elf, one has to make the title level. An elf starts much closer to their cap than a wizard. I believe all this became confused with the separation of race and class. And of course we can't forget the lid coming off and levels extending on beyond title levels.



Third: conclusion that I wish to share with OP

Convert all the Demi human races into a Class. Subtract their level cap from the Fighters' level cap of 9. The result is the level a Demi human should start at. And then you have The Chainmail: fantasy version of demi humans.


Tigh

 

[Vegepygmy]

Are you honestly saying the fact that humans otherwise have zero advantages as a PC race has absolutely nothing to do with this decision?

Back then, yes. There was really no concept of "game balance" as we think of it today.

 

[Ariosto]

I don't think it was notably "balanced" to limit hobbits to 4th level in the original set (and most fighter-class halflings likewise in 1E AD&D), while allowing dwarves and elves to advance further.

Gygax devoted DMG page 21 to the subject, under the heading of "The Monster as a Player Character".

Advanced D&D is unquestionably "humanocentric", with demi-humans, semi-humans and humanoids in various orbits about the sun of humanity. Men are the worst monsters, particularly high-level characters ... There is a point where the well-equipped, high-level party of adventurers can challenge a demon prince, an arch-devil, or a demi-god. While there might well be some near or part humans with the group so doing, it is certain that the leaders will be human. ... The game features humankind for a reason. It is the most logical basis in an illogical game.

Gygax went on to relate the advantages, especially for the DM whose task is to craft an imagined world, "when history, folklore, myth, fable and fiction can be incorporated or used as reference for the campaign".