what stinking cloud can do

[evilbob]

I have searched many pages and haven't found much about stinking cloud, and what people think of this power. I'm sure there's more out there, but the most recent thread tends to be focused on whether or not it grants partial or total concealment. Just to give some questioning DMs (and newbie wizards) some more information, here is an example of how stinking cloud can work in a real game.

Here's the text:
[sblock]
Stinking Cloud Wizard Attack 5
You call forth a thick cloud of bilious yellow vapors. The foul fumes overwhelm any creature within.
Daily ✦ Arcane, Implement, Poison, Zone
Standard Action Area burst 2 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage.
Effect: The burst creates a zone of poisonous vapor that blocks line of sight until the end of your next turn. Creatures that enter the zone or start their turns there take 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage. As a move action, you can move the zone up to 6 squares.
Sustain Minor: The zone persists.
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Here's what that means: you create a 5x5 cloud of death that you can move all over the place and can keep until the end of battle. Anyone who starts their turn in the cloud takes damage. That's right: there's no attack roll, they just take damage. In other words, all minions are dead, because you don't even have to roll an attack to hit them. It also says that "creatures that enter the zone" take auto-damage as well. There are basically three ways something can enter the zone: they move into it, something moves them into it, or the zone moves over them. For all those who nay-say the third part of that statement, I'm sorry: if the cloud envelopes you, you have entered it. However, just about any reasonable person will agree that this last point is moot because it is also insanely overpowered and quickly houserule that it does not work the way it is written. This is because as-written, you could move the cloud on, off, on, off, and on to a single creature 3 times in a single move action; sack your standard action for another move: 3 more times. That's 6d10 + 6 x int AUTO damage every round, and you didn't have to do anything. Even level 29 dailies can't do that, so as-written, you can't really play it that way. Most people seem to either say the power only affects a target once per turn, or that moving the cloud onto something doesn't count.

It also says that the zone blocks line of sight. It's up to you to determine what this means, but the simplest conclusion is that all squares in the zone give total concealment, and a more complex conclusion says that anyone on the edge of the zone has concealment, and anyone next to someone else in the zone only has concealment, but otherwise you have total concealment. Check other threads for the details and arguments.


So:
I had just hit level 5 and decided to take stinking cloud because I didn't really like the other level 5 powers and this one sounded ok. (Seriously - I had no idea.) After one random encounter, we decided to houserule the wording to effectively say "any creature that moves or is moved into" the zone gets hit, because - as I said - otherwise it's way past broken. Honestly though, even if you dial it alllllll the way back to "only creatures who voluntarily move into the zone" are affected, it really doesn't make much difference. Sure, it sounds like an awesome combo to thunderwave someone back into the cloud (and it is) or use a slide power to push someone in and out and in again (and it totally is), but that's not going to happen more than once or twice, and who cares when you can just move the cloud to them every round. Those hits really aren't the issue anyway.

We also decided that any creature in the zone has total concealment. This ruling is technically the "worst" for the players since it keeps them from targeting anything in the zone - effectively giving the poor zone inhabitants who have just taken damage a "move around for free" card without getting pelted at range as well. It also helps the DM tactically, although depending on how they rule someone moving around effectively blind, it can also hurt somewhat. I believe our monsters moved at full speed without penalty - another "minus" for the power.


The situation was beyond tactically perfect for the use of the cloud. We were in a long room that was only 8 squares wide, and the enemies were bunched up on one end in huge groups about 10 squares away. There were ranged guys up on platforms and melee guys coming through a narrow area in the middle of the room. I think the GM added like 3 extra guys just because it was so lop-sided... In the end, we fought 4 minions, about 5 ranged guys, 3 brutes, 3 or 4 solider-types, and a mage - all about our level, with some maybe slightly lower. (Climactic finish.)

I opened with the cloud and sustained it the entire encounter - and frankly, I am kicking myself even now for forgetting to combo it with the shadowfell gloves (adds 1d6 to all damage rolls), but it wasn't necessary. The cloud not only shut down half the ranged attackers (they couldn't see us) and killed all the minions before their first turn (did I mention I went first?), but it forced the remaining ranged attackers to bunch up in a tight group... Which I then pelted with scorching burst with each standard action. After that, I just moved the cloud around each turn, enveloping as many enemies as possible, which was easy because everyone was bunched up and couldn't move very much (our melee guys got out front early and assisted perfectly) while also throwing around at-will powers. In the end, I killed all the minions (duh - wizard), ranged attackers, and the mage by MYSELF. (Note: I am not spec'd for damage.) I don't think I've ever killed a non-minion by myself before in 5 levels. I also took a chunk out of the melee guys and the brutes, but not much. The rest of the party handled all of them. However, all this is not that remarkable, until I went back and mentally counted all of the damage I did with the cloud. All total, I had hit about 25 times - and 22 of those times did not require an attack roll. We never managed to push/slide anyone into the cloud once, and I still did 22d10 + 22 x Int (and darn it, it SHOULD have been 22d10 + 22d6 + 22 x Int) of AUTO-damage with a level 5 daily power. I'm seriously considering picking up some veteran's armor (daily power: spend an action point to recharge a daily power).


Again, this was a "perfect storm" of tactical situations that came together beautifully. There was a narrow corridor and gobs of mobs. I won initiative and took advantage of it. My teammates also were completely responsible for this success, as they kept the high-HP melee enemies from getting back to my highly immobile self while I just killed everything. And I also had just picked up a cloak of distortion (ranged attacks > 5 squares away take a -5 penalty to hit), so it was REALLY hard to hit me at range. I don't know that I could have planned the whole thing better, except for forgetting the gloves.

However, it does go to show you what one level 5 daily attack power can do - and again, this is after taking the "no, they seriously could not have meant this when they wrote it this way" out of it already. All of this is just a little more information for any 4.0 DMs or wizards who are wondering, "so what's all this fuss about a silly cloud that doesn't do much damage?"

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

I honestly would rule against moving the cloud over enemies then off again, etc.... The reason for this is that I doubt the actual capability for the cloud to affect someone if the enemy is only brushed by the edge of the cloud quickly in succession. I personally don't see how this foul air damages someone if it briefly appear in their area, leaves, and then returns. I doubt most people don't constantly inhale in rapid succession to be affected as such (specific cases aside).

However, I do believe they could be affected by the cloud moving over them. Therefore, I personally would rule that the cloud's ability to damage a creature that moves into the cloud or when the cloud is moved onto them can happen only once in a round, similar to the damage the creature takes from being in the cloud happens only once. This would make the cloud seem viable as a spell, without abusing it in anyway.

 

[Noumenon]

as-written, you could move the cloud on, off, on, off, and on to a single creature 3 times in a single move action; sack your standard action for another move: 3 more times.

Heh. Reminds me of the first time I realized you could make someone take 20 Reflex saves a round with a large Air Elemental in 3.5. It's hard to believe they didn't rule this stuff out the first time they had someone test it in play, but they just trust the DM's sense of fairness I guess.

 

[Infiniti2000]

A. If simply moving the cloud over a target doesn't cause damage, then you can safely move the cloud over allies to reach enemies on the other side.

B. If simply moving the cloud over a target causes damage, then you can move it back and forth, causing a ripple effect of damage. Alternatively, you can move it over a lot of enemies spread all over the board. I don't know all of the possible powers out there, but hopefully there's nothing along the lines of "gain x when taking poison damage".

I don't know which option I like better. Perhaps an option C that is similar to A but somehow damages allies only.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

It has always been fairly clear to me that the intent is that you take damage if you enter the zone. As in 'you', the subject, are taking the action of entering the zone as opposed to being pushed into it.

If you end up in the zone any other way (Forced movement, the zone is moved over you etc.), you don't take damage at that point. Of course, you'll then take damage at the beginning of your tunr.

The idea being that after the initial attack, you are only meant to take damage on your own turn, either through your actions or simply because you were in the cloud to start with. And obviously enouh (to me, anyway), you only take damage once per turn. That's how I treat every zone damage.

Sure, you can interpret it differently and then be forced to 'houserule' your stringent interpreation, but... It's kinda silly. I think I got the intent pretty well.

---

It's a pretty cool spell. Just picked it and I'm eager to try it. It has obvious downside; The main being that it takes a move action to move and a minor to sustain.

The minor may not seem like much but I occasionnaly use it because my wizard is an initiate of the faith (healing word). Needing to use a move action is more annoying; if you need to get out of a tight spot because yu are being swarmed, you can attack or you can move the cloud but can't do both. A situation that should be common for any wizard; once you cast that puppy, sane enemies will rush you, focus artilley fire, even risk AoO from the fighter to do the ole' ''move, get hit, stop moving, charge the wizard.'' trick to blitz passed the fighter. Painful, but necessary (I'll just put the damage from such AoO on my personal tally when that happens ).

Tips to DMs; if anyone on the field has a stunning ability, hit the wizard with hit. The spell will drop.

Daze is great and fairly common alternative. The wizard will be forced to sustain and do nothing else, or move/cast if in trouble and the spell will drop.

Prone is also pretty good. You need a move to get up...

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

Actually, after consulting my brother in a brief discussion about the powerm we both have come to the conclusion that moving the cloud over an enemy will not do anything to them.

RAW says that the enemies take damage if they start their turn in the cloud or move into the cloud. This says nothing about the cloud moving over them and, unless it said otherwise, would do nothing to harm them.

Conceptually, how does the cloud do damage? The answer seems to be through breathing in the foul air which hurts them. Without taking creatures who do not breath into the equation, this damage would occur whenever they breath the air in. Now, I don't want to get into a big discussion about the whole 6 second round concept and how many breaths one would take in a round. However, if you think about what the conditions the power outlines for the damage of the cloud, you can only really see someone taking damage from the cloud once during a turn (DM rulings and idiotic creatures walking out then into the cloud again aside).

Also, the idea that a creature inside the cloud can take less damage from standing inside of the cloud than a creature who is constantly subjected to the cloud by either moving into and out of it or (which I see not possible) the cloud being moved onto the enemy numerous times. In fact, would the cloud dissipate if you keep constantly "fanning" the cloud back and forth over an area? I would say yes.

 

[yesnomu]

You need to actually move into the Cloud actively for the damage to occur. Forced movement in will trigger it (though mind the save, DMG pg 44), but simply moving the Cloud over a creature won't. Think of it as a point the gases emanate out of-- the origin point needs to be at rest for the gases to spread out and fill the area.

It's still plenty powerful, especially with the LOS-blocking.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I disagree with your interpretation that moving the cloud onto someone means they take damage. IMO they don't "Creatures that enter the zone or start their turns there" doesn't cover that. If the wiz moves the cloud over a target and leaves it there so that at the start of the creature's next turn he is in it..it will take damage otherwise a big no RAW wise to the bashing some one about the head with the cloud manoeuvre.

 

[Mistwell]

I can see how "Creatures that enter the zone or start their turns there take 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage" means creatures only take this damage due to things which happen on their turn. Either they start their turn there, or enter it on their turn.

We have been playing that being pushed into the zone causes the damage as well, with Grasping Shadows. That spell says "Any creature that enters the area of the grasping shadows takes psychic damage equal to your Intelligence modifier and is slowed until the end of its next turn." However it is not a mobile spell, so the major flaw of moving back and forth from the cloud doesn't come into play with Shadows.

I think it would be unreasonable to allow a cloud to move back and forth in a single turn to do multiple damages. As mentioned above, a person sitting in the cloud should not take less damage than a person going in and out of the cloud several times in the same turn. I would apply damage one time for movement, no matter how many times it moves over the target that turn. Calling it a stacking rule, or whatever, but it's nonsensical to claim it can damage multiple times in the same turn.

 

[Kordeth]

I can see how "Creatures that enter the zone or start their turns there take 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage" means creatures only take this damage due to things which happen on their turn. Either they start their turn there, or enter it on their turn.

Not entirely. The creature's turn doesn't matter, but it has to be the creature moving into the cloud and not the cloud moving over the creature.

We have been playing that being pushed into the zone causes the damage as well, with Grasping Shadows. That spell says "Any creature that enters the area of the grasping shadows takes psychic damage equal to your Intelligence modifier and is slowed until the end of its next turn." However it is not a mobile spell, so the major flaw of moving back and forth from the cloud doesn't come into play with Shadows.

This is correct. The rules say "creatures who enter," not "creatures who enter voluntarily on their turn."

I think it would be unreasonable to allow a cloud to move back and forth in a single turn to do multiple damages. As mentioned above, a person sitting in the cloud should not take less damage than a person going in and out of the cloud several times in the same turn. I would apply damage one time for movement, no matter how many times it moves over the target that turn. Calling it a stacking rule, or whatever, but it's nonsensical to claim it can damage multiple times in the same turn.

Movement isn't relative. A cloud passing through your square is not the same as you entering the cloud. If that kind of logic worked, then you moving away from an enemy would count as the enemy leaving a square adjacent to you and we'd all be making OAs every time we tucked tail and ran.