What level for a great wyrm?

[Phazeal]

Just availing myself of the monster manual, and as one does I went straight to the ancient red dragon (great wyrm) to have a look at his stats to see how tough he is (For some reason I view this as the benchmark for toughness).

So my question is what level does a party of five have to be to kill one? I had hitherto figured that 20th level would be enough (before seeing the stats), but looking at the immense stats for that creature, I'm thinking more like 30th.

And what would you NEED in your party to kill one?

Curious.

P

 

[Aust Diamondew]

You can win if you plan ahead, ambush the thing and have a little luck. I've seen my PCs do it. All of them nearly got killed during the course of the battle (in fact the sorcerer was killed but he had a contingent ressurection already on him).

 

[Captain NeMo]

I'd say a party of 6 could take it on at 15lvl or so. If they were good tacticians. And had good items.

 

[Phazeal]

15th?

I'd say a party of 6 could take it on at 15lvl or so. If they were good tacticians. And had good items.

Surely you would have to have heaps of preparation time if you were going to take it on at 15th?

I was thinking more along the lines of, "you see a great red wyrm 40ft ahead, roll pls."

What level without 10rds of preparation (maybe 1 rd of free actions only), and with what could generally be considered as appropriate level items for the characters?

 

[Captain NeMo]

Surely you would have to have heaps of preparation time if you were going to take it on at 15th?

I was thinking more along the lines of, "you see a great red wyrm 40ft ahead, roll pls."

What level without 10rds of preparation (maybe 1 rd of free actions only), and with what could generally be considered as appropriate level items for the characters?

Bear in mind that that was coming from a guy (me) who doesn't even know how to optimize a 3 level wizard, nevermind win battles effectively.

 

[Stormborn]

I once read, an interview somewhere so take this as you will, that the CRs for Dragons were based on the assumption a party was PLANNING on fighting one. Ploping one down in the middle of a road and having it attack them would make it much more difficult.

So, if they are planning on fighting one then the CR is probablly accurate and a party can deal with it at +/- 2 levels from its CR. Especially if they have been reading the Dragonimicon and have maxed out in the prestige classes and feats. Currently playing a Paladin in a world where a black dragon has destroyed a small kingdom in the recent past and I have been planning on taking Dragon Slayer from level 1, with all the bonus feats and gear in mind.

If the party isn't planning on fighting a dragon, has no gear,feats, or classes specialized for dragon fighting, then any adult dragon's CR should easilly be increased by 3 or more.

If you are interested in dragons you must buy the Dragonimocon.

 

[Darkness]

I once read, an interview somewhere so take this as you will, that the CRs for Dragons were based on the assumption a party was PLANNING on fighting one. Ploping one down in the middle of a road and having it attack them would make it much more difficult.

That was the case in 3.0. They increased many dragon CRs in 3.5 so they're consistent with the regular CR system.

 

[Stormborn]

That was the case in 3.0. They increased many dragon CRs in 3.5 so they're consistent with the regular CR system.

Oh, well at least I remembered that right.

I still think that any major CR monster is going to be significantly more difficult than its CR if you haven't planned on fighting one. Intelligent undead alone can be a nightmare w/o a cleric or paladin. Same with lots of others.

 

[Delemental]

Surely you would have to have heaps of preparation time if you were going to take it on at 15th?

I was thinking more along the lines of, "you see a great red wyrm 40ft ahead, roll pls."

What level without 10rds of preparation (maybe 1 rd of free actions only), and with what could generally be considered as appropriate level items for the characters?

Well, the listed Challenge Rating for a great wyrm red dragon is 26. I believe that CRs are supposed to be calibrated assuming a party of four, in a neutral location (where neither the dragon or the PCs have an advantage due to terrain or other factors). So theoretically a party of four 26th level characters could take on this dragon in the scenario you describe. With five characters, maybe down to 23rd-24th.

Now, several people will probably argue that the CR system, especially for tougher monsters, isn't particularly accurate. I won't disagree. One thing to bear in mind is that the theoretical party of four that Wizards bases their CRs on isn't an optimized group of characters (things like fighters with Power Attack, but no two-handed weapon). A party that has done a better job at building characters to maximize their strengths can probably shave a few levels off. The biggest factor for either side would be prep time.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think it's important to remember that, when it comes to creatures like high-powered dragons, DM preparation is just as big a factor--if not bigger--than PC preparation.

Once you have a dragon with a lot of spellcasting levels, and a DM who is willing to seriously think tactically when choosing those spells, and is willing to let loose and hold nothing back when using every ability at the dragon's disposal... Well, then (IME) they're practically unbeatable unless the party is ridiculously huge or powerful.