What is the SOUL in the context of D&D and fantasy RPGs?

[Turanil]

**This thread, of course, is not meant to be a discussion about real life's religions!** No, what I would like to know, is how you deal with the subject of souls in your rpg campaigns.

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Lets begin with a few D&D and typical fantasy assumptions about souls:

-- Mortals are made up of body + soul. When one dies the body becomes useless, while the soul goes to an outer plane appropriate to how the mortal behaved during his/her life (e.g. virtuous characters go to Heaven, while evil ones go to Hell).

-- AD&D 1e elves had no soul, so couldn't be resurrected.

-- Souls can be sold to fiends, and Night Hags customarily trade in souls.

-- Black magicians sacrifice the souls of others to demons, to summon them.

-- Faust-like sorcerers can sell their soul to the Devil to gain power and wealth during their mortal life.

-- Apparently souls can be used to power magical items (but I haven't read Magic of Incarnum).

-- The "Trap the Soul" spell doesn't seem to trap the soul itself, but to abduct the target in its entirety.

-- In some fantasy novels (like Conan), sorcerers can put their souls into amulets to protect them. Likewise, if they can capture one's soul and put it into a special container, they get power over that individual. In some Saberhagen novel, a major demon had its soul hidden into a slave's hair; in cutting and burning these hairs, a hero rendered the mighty demon powerless and killed it easily.

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Now here is my take on the soul in fantasy games. Discuss it, so I could improve the concept and change it if necessary:

1) I prefer to think Body + Lifeforce + Soul, rather than just body + soul.

2) As a matter of personnal taste I don't like the idea that others can sacrifice your soul and sell it to demons. IMC, souls are immortal, unalterable, and nobody (mortal or god) can affect or steal someone else's soul. Then, the soul is not something you can put in a container. It exists more than anything else, but it's at the same time totally immaterial. The soul is more like consciousness, with a quality that was forged during the life (or lives, if souls get reincarnated). This quality orients the soul onto the right outer plane (Heaven, Hell, etc.) after death.

3) Sorcerers claim to sacrifice others' souls, and put theirs into amulets to protect them. Night Hags claim to sell souls that demons will feed upon. There are even people who think they use souls to power magical items. However, this is but ignorance or deliberate lie (to scare others), as in all of this, it is the lifeforce which is involved, never the soul. The lifeforce is made up of Positive Energy, while unlifeforce is made up of Negative Energy.

4) Sorcerers who try to sacrifice others' souls to demons, while they only sacrifice others' lifeforce, truly forfeit their own soul to the lower planes. Only one's deliberate and chosen actions has an effect upon what will ultimately become of his/her own soul.

4) There is another concept I would use IMC, vaguely inspired from the Christian faith. The idea is that God created everything perfectly, but that some of his creatures rebelled against Him and were banished (or fled to) the lower planes. Then, all souls are created by God, but are given the choice of eventually following him or not. Now, the monotheistic religions claim that one's should do all he/she can for the benefit of his/her soul so it goes with God in the Afterlife. Conversely, demons claim that no such thing as the soul exist, and that one should turn to undeath if he doesn't want to utterly disappear when he dies. It's a lie of course, but demons, are full of hate against God, and want to deny anything that has to do with Him, such as the soul, which is a spark of his divine being. Well, something like that, that still needs to be refined.

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Of course, all these years I did play D&D, we never had any use for determining exactly what the soul is (in the game). And maybe it's even not necessary at all?

 

[Vrecknidj]

In my own campaign, I use a somewhat Platonic soul; it is a three-part, immaterial "substance." One part represents the person's desires, one part represents the person's willfulness, the other part represents the person's reason. The person himself might not recognize himself as having these three aspects, instead viewing them all as just himself.

The soul itself, as immaterial, maintains a connection with the body while the body is alive, but can be disconnected from it without killing the body (magic, dreams, etc.). The enterprising individual can eventually discover that it's possible to be disembodied and still be able to think, reason, feel, etc. Sensing, however, becomes a problem. Without eyes one cannot see, without ears one cannot hear, etc. Magic can overcome this, giving the soul sight and hearing and perhaps other senses. But, the soul itself, as an immaterial substance, does not occupy space or time. So, motion becomes a problem without a body (that too can be overcome by magic). In effect, magic can create another temporary house for the soul (whether an astral body, a gem, another item, another individual, etc.). The soul itself, however, as an immaterial thing, has all the limits of an immaterial thing. (Compare it to a number, the number 4 is both anywhere and nowhere; as it isn't physical, it can't go anywhere or have any point of view, but, as it isn't physical, it cannot die or be affected.)

The soul, in my campaign, cannot truly be sold or destroyed. The part of the soul that would correspond to the conscious ego can think that it has sold itself, or that it has been lost or made worthless, but, the part that would correspond to the unconscious (i.e. the part that gives you dream images, or that gives you ideas "out of the blue") is, in a sense, "the real you" and although the ego-part of yourself can be deceived or controlled, that other, deeper part, cannot be, and it's the real you (i.e. it might correspond to the True Name and all that).

When someone places part of his soul into an object (i.e. Voldemort in Harry Potter), he really is weakening himself, and really is drawing away his power by dividing up his faculties. But, even though he may think it's his soul that he's doing this to, it's not--it's the ego-centered portion of his consciousness that he thinks is his soul.

The deeply, truly wise (i.e. those that don't end up turning into crazy necromancers, etc.) can eventually learn of their own soul nature, and can even tap into it. In this regard, I use a very old Wizards of the Coast product (pre-aquisition of TSR days) called the Primal Order. From that system, each person's soul has a certain amount of divine energy (primal base = (level + wisdom)/4). So long as that divine energy is below 10, that individual cannot access the primal energy that the soul contains. Once it gets above 10, the individual has primal flux equal to a tenth of his base to spend every day. There are lots of things to do with flux, and they're detailed in the aforementioned book.

Dave

 

[Aus_Snow]

In my own campaign, I use a somewhat Platonic soul; it's is a three-part, immaterial "substance." One part represents the person's desires, one part represents the person's willfulness, the other part represents the person's reason.

This also sounds a fair bit like certain tenets of certain branches of Eastern mysticism. It's a solid enough base to work from, I think - regardless of where it might be drawn from.

Gotta say, Primal Order sounds interesting.


And Turanil, no it's not necessary, but it can surely add a great deal of depth to a genre often lacking in that. It is, after all, pretty much fundamental to virtually any uni- or multiverse.

 

[DragonLancer]

IMC, which borrows quite a bit from the backstory of the Well of Broken Souls module, the soul is the self and has nothing to do with any life force. You, the personality and memories are the soul. Its a part of you until something happens to it.

It can be stolen and placed in an object through magic, leaving an inaminate but alive body behind.
When you die, you go to your god's realm and he gains your XP to his own, and theres no way a god is going to allow some little demon to get that soul for that reason.

 

[Li Shenron]

I simply run the game without bothering about revealing too much about the nature of the soul to my players.

But in most setting of mine this is how things usually work, at least in my head :


MORTALS

- mortals have a soul which survives after death

- if the soul is created before birth or has always existed is unknown and irrelevant

- souls go to the afterlife and usually stay there forever: those in heaven may be able to leave but typically don't want to, those in hell may want but typically can't

- how the afterlife is designed really depends on the campaign, and so does the method of deciding one's destination

- once in the afterlife the soul cannot be destroyed for what concerns the game (unknown and irrelevant if there is going to be a "doom's day" or "end of the universe" moment)

- usually souls in the heavens of the setting cannot be even harmed, so killing them in combat is impossible
- on the other hand, souls who ended up in hell-like places can often be killed but always come back (to "die" is a relief they are not usually granted)
- these may be a property of the plane of existance, but the ultimate immortality is rather a property of the soul itself

- for technical purposes, petitioners belong to the Outsider type: they don't need to eat/drink/sleep or breathe


Natives of the afterlife

- some creatures were not created mortals: they were never alive and didn't die

- in many ways, a petitioner and a native are the same kind of thing

- these immortals too cannot be killed forever, because there is always room for a deity-like intervention that would bring them back, but they can be destroyed out of existance at least for a while


Elemental-kind beings

- the truly elemental beings (not including mortals with elemental traits) are not as much individuals as they are sentient extensions of their original plane; as such they are never really alive nor they have a soul, and when they are destroyed they merge with their element



These guidelines are actually quite derived from the rules themselves, and from the fact that ultimately you can apparently kill everything in D&D if that makes a nice adventure, but at the same time it can always come back if that makes a nice sequel

 

[Lanefan]

Li Shenron's ideas are not all that far from my own, in general...but there's a few differences:

The soul-lifeforce-whatever (i.e. all the non-material parts of a lifeform) I just call "spirit", and each sentient living being has one.

When someone dies, the spirit spends some time getting to its final afterlife destination...it is during this time that Raise Dead will (usually) work, after which you need Resurrection to haul the spirit out of its afterlife realm. It is also during this time that a spirit may be snatched by a greedy deity (these spirit-collecting types do exist); this the most common reason for raise-type effects to fail.

A spirit retains memories of its most recent physical life. Memories of its afterlife are retained only until the spirit is revived from the dead. (with an exception; see below) A spirit placed in a new life loses all memories of everything and has to start over.

A spirit in an afterlife realm retains its most recent physical form and appearance. Thus, if Jarl and Jorge were companions while alive and meet in the afterlife, they would recognize each other.

Rarely, it is possible for mortals to walk in to a land of the dead* and for spirits to walk out. In this case, memory of events in the afterlife is retained. A mortal who dies in an afterlife realm simply becomes dead (and their spirit is almost certainly now resident in that realm regardless of previous beliefs etc.). A spirit that "dies" in an afterlife realm awakens the next "morning" with a really bad hangover but otherwise remains the same. A spirit that somehow escapes the afterlife (e.g. walks out to the prime material) resumes its physical form as if resurrected - the 3e True Resurrection mechanic works well for this, although in this case no actual spell is cast - and also retains memories of the afterlife; this makes it possible in highly unusual circumstances to in fact gain levels etc. while dead!

* - I've both used and played this on several occasions as an adventure backdrop; mortals walking in to a land of the dead to do something, or to find a spirit and bring it out.

There are a few rare effects that can completely destroy a spirit. A properly-worded wish might do so. In my game, the most powerful psyonic attack can do so. A badly-handled bargain with an underworld power can do so. And so on. A destroyed spirit cannot be revived except by direct divine intervention; even more rare. Raising the corpse of someone whose spirit has been destroyed produces a living body with no intelligence, wisdom, memories, or training; i.e. an automaton. (and it'll die again pretty soon thereafter unless it can somehow be taught to breathe...)

Lane-"death's a bitch, and then you live"-fan

 

[Cheiromancer]

I knew this topic looked familiar!

Lets determine together what the soul is, and what are its game mechanics.

 

[frankthedm]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2931190#post2931190
In much fantasy fiction and previous editions of the D&D game, mortal souls [and spirits for elves and non demi-humans] were semi-regularly at grave risk; death effects, becoming undead, energy drains, water weirds slurping the souls of those they drown, dying to the claws of outsiders, being sliced with the one of those black bladed swords, evil magic users stealing souls for eternal youth… etc, all meant no Raising, Resurrecting or afterlife. Even in 3e, in which Resurrection could now restore a victim after Death effects and undeath, The Manual of the Planes specified several ways of souls not reaching the afterlife.

Only in the 3.5 Complete Divine was it claimed virtually all souls make it to their eternal reward without a Wish/Miracle getting involved. I assumed this was done to set a brighter, more heroic, tone on what is usually the darkest subject in D&D and fantasy fiction. But now it looks like not all wotc staff feel that way. While looking over one of the new MM4 undead monsters, I noticed this delightful ability. While it does not explicitly put Soul Food back on the menu, it is a step in that direction.

Steal Face (Su) If a defacer's slam attack kills a creature with an Intelligence of 3 or higher, or if the defacer touches the body of such a creature within 1 day of its death, the defacer steals its face as an immediate action. This physically erases the facial features of the body, including bone structure, mouth, and teeth, leaving a smooth and blank surface. Attempts to cast speak with dead on victims of this attack always fail.

This defilement of the corpse also draws the soul of the creature to the defacer, and it becomes one of the keening faces that whirl about the defacer's head. This prevents the soul from reaching the afterlife, becoming undead, or being raised or resurrected. Nothing short of destroying the defacer restores a corpse's face and frees the soul.

I say the mortal soul can not be harmed by non magical means. Once magic enters the scene the soul is very vulnerable, after all a 1st level spell [magic missile applied enough times] can destroy a incoporeal spirit. I see nothing wrong Death Effects destroying souls.

The body is what guards the soul in most of these instances [fort save / HP]. If the body is weak, the black magic gets to the soul and obliterates it like a needle popping a soap bubble. Energy drains are even worse, they are a direct assault on the soul and will cause the victim to rise as a wight should the victim succumb to them. Damned to walk the world, consuming more souls for eternity

Soul eating monsters are a part of many mythologies and are as tied to the Genre as Conan.

 

[Turanil]

In this regard, I use a very old Wizards of the Coast product (pre-aquisition of TSR days) called the Primal Order.

Cool! I will have to try to find this!

I knew this topic looked familiar!

Lets determine together what the soul is, and what are its game mechanics.

Great, Thanks! I would have been unable to find that thread again! Glad you did.

 

[Dykstrav]

I generally try to steer players away from discussing the metaphysics of souls in D&D. For one thing, it's kinda cheeseball to me to lay out the grand mysteries of the universe on a platter. Characters (in the context of the game) debate about the soul and many other issues. If they really want to know about souls, it should involve pilgrimages, consulting saints and religious sages, contact other plane spells and the like. All the things that make a good adventure.

I also want to leave myself a little "wiggle room" in case I want to expand later. I generally don't set concrete details about anything- geography, history, social organization or metaphysics- until it's revelant to the adventure. It's ultimately a game, and I haven't seen the game suffer yet because I didn't plot out the metaphysics carefully.

I do have some behind-the-curtains ideas about how things work, however. These things have shown up in my adventures from time to time.

My ancient-world setting has a distinct Underworld. Many people (sentients with an Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma score of 3 or higher) show up in the Underworld when they die. Others don't show up in the Underworld at all, it's hypothesized that these souls pass immediately onto their final reward. The Underworld is a dreary, grim place similar to Hades in the core cosmology. It's not inherently evil, but as a nexus between the worlds of the living and the dead, it tends to attract alot of evil critters that want to prey on the souls there. The Underworld has distinct regions and kingdoms, where people of different alignments tend to congregate. Sepluchural rivers (the Styx, the Acheron, the Lethe, et cetera) generally set the borders between regions and serve as the main method of travel.

Most people that 'wake up' in the Underworld do it around Mount Erebus. Mount Erebus is swarmed with night hags, ferrymen (a new outsider of my own design), and other critters that hunt souls. Some people are captured and sold into bondage, usually in the form of larva. Others manage to escape into Mount Erebus' caverns, where they might wander 'up' back into the ethereal plane- becoming ghosts.

There is some thought that a soul can't pass through the Underworld until the body is given a proper burial or is utterly destroyed. Different religions vary on their opinions of this. Generally, people with Knowledge (the planes) or Knowledge (religion) know that the Underworld is an icky place ruled by entire kingdoms of ghosts.

Nonsentient critters (those without Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma scores, or those with scores of 3 or less in any one of these abilities) are considered to have 'anima' instead of souls. Animas don't retain their identities after death and usually rejoin some universal consciousness.