D&D 5E What is the highest possible spell save DC?

[ro]

There are a plethora of ways to increase attack bonus, and it starts at 10 + proficiency + primary stat. In contrast, spell save DC starts at 8 + proficiency +primary stat, and the options to increase it of which I am aware are one magic item that is limited solely to warlocks, and another that is limited solely to Cha casters.

Why is this? Are there any ways for Clerics, Druids, and Wizards to increase their save DCs?

What is the highest possible spell save DC, and in comparison, what is the highest possible attack bonus?
On the flip side, for enemies, what is the highest possible saving throw bonus, and what is the highest possible AC?

 

[Tony Vargas]

It's because saves are inverted attack rolls, and because low ACs are less common than crap save bonuses.
Attack bonus isn't 10+prof+stat, it's prof+stat and added to a d20. AC is 10+stuff. All kinds of stuff.

proficiency is the same for everyone, and your best stat is usually pretty similar at a given level, too. So you can have a +11 to hit, and ACs go above 20 at higher levels, so you're hit'n half the time or even a little less unless you have a magic weapon or someone concentrating on a bless spell for you.

Conversely, you typically have proficiency in only two saves, and your highest stat isn't necessarily either of them, while the DC is based on the casters highest stat and always adds proficiency. So the caster can guess your worst, or even not-best, save, he has a distinct advantage.

At low level, starting save DCs at 8 more or less makes up for not being proficient in a most saves. DCs tend to be 13 or so, your better save bonuses may be +5, your not-so good, +2, your worst, quite possibly, -1. Spells work about half the time unless they're unfortunate enough to target your best save. At the other end of the spectrum, your best save may be +11, but your not-so-good saves are mostly going to be +2 or so, still, though you'll have one save that's at +6 from proficiency, but not getting the bonus of your best stat, and your worst may well still be -1. But the DC's're up to 19. So, someone casting the same 1st level spell at you that you needed a natural 8 to save vs 19 levels ago, now that you both have 20's in your best stats & proficiency, you still need a natural 8 to save against, but if he can target your worst save, you'll need to roll a 20, not a 14. And you're generally, at best, treading water with saving throws, and very often getting /worse/ as you go up in levels.

 

[CapnZapp]

spell save DC starts at 8 + proficiency +primary stat, and the options to increase it of which I am aware are one magic item that is limited solely to warlocks, and another that is limited solely to Cha casters.

Why is this? Are there any ways for Clerics, Druids, and Wizards to increase their save DCs?

What is the highest possible spell save DC?

There are a few (very few) magic items that increase your spell save DC. One of them is the Robe of the Archmagi, which works for sorcerers, wizards and warlocks.

You were probably thinking about the Rod of the Pact Keeper (for warlocks) and... I'm not sure exactly. Instrument of the Bards helps Hypnotic Pattern by granting disadvantage on the save. Hemlock mentioned the Ioun Stone of Mastery, for another +1.

Without that kind of magic, you reach DC 19 when your spellcasting ability is maxed out at 20 and your proficiency bonus is +6. So break that maximum! With Wisdom 22 a Cleric reaches spell save DC 20. With Charisma 24 a Bard reaches spell save DC 21. And so on.

I would say the quest for "highest save DC" is a bit of a folly. There is a much easier way to achieve fiendishly difficult saves (which after all is the end goal here): intelligently target a weak save!

Zapp


PS. Do note you are per RAW only one multiclass level away from getting to use these items. A Druid X/Wizard 1 can use a Robe of the Archmagi, for instance, getting all its listed benefits. That's seriously worth it, if your group stumbles over one and noone else wants it (hey could happen )

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

There are a plethora of ways to increase attack bonus, and it starts at 10 + proficiency + primary stat. In contrast, spell save DC starts at 8 + proficiency +primary stat, and the options to increase it of which I am aware are one magic item that is limited solely to warlocks, and another that is limited solely to Cha casters.

Why is this? Are there any ways for Clerics, Druids, and Wizards to increase their save DCs?

What is the highest possible spell save DC, and in comparison, what is the highest possible attack bonus?

5E is a little bit ambiguous about stat boundaries, but if for the sake of argument you cap stats at 30 and cap CRs at 30 and only allow DMG magic items, then the highest possible spell save DC is (I think) 34, for a CR 30 monster which is also a Cha 30 Warlock using an Ioun Stone of Mastery (+1 to proficiency bonus) and a Staff of Power (+2 to save DC) and a Rod of the Pact Keeper +3 (+3 to attack rolls and save DC).

But of course in reality the real maximum save DC is unbounded. It could be arbitrarily high. (But if you're running a sane campaign, it probably shouldn't be higher than 23 or so.)

 

[CapnZapp]

5E is a little bit ambiguous about stat boundaries, but if for the sake of argument you cap stats at 30 and cap CRs at 30 and only allow DMG magic items, then the highest possible spell save DC is (I think) 34, for a CR 30 monster which is also a Cha 30 Warlock using an Ioun Stone of Mastery (+1 to proficiency bonus) and a Staff of Power (+2 to save DC) and a Rod of the Pact Keeper +3 (+3 to attack rolls and save DC).

But of course in reality the real maximum save DC is unbounded. It could be arbitrarily high. (But if you're running a sane campaign, it probably shouldn't be higher than 23 or so.)

A staff of Power grants bonuses to many things, but spell save DCs isn't one of them.

(Though switch it for the Robe I mentioned and your calculations stay the same)

Thanks for mentioning the Ioun stone, though - proficiency bonuses are as rare in 5th edition as they are awesome (especially for spellcasters; martials have many more ways to increase their to-hit)

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[tjnova9724]

proficiency is the same for everyone, and your best stat is usually pretty similar at a given level, too. So you can have a +11 to hit, and ACs go above 20 at higher levels, so you're hit'n half the time or even a little less unless you have a magic weapon or someone concentrating on a bless spell for you.

Conversely, you typically have proficiency in only two saves, and your highest stat isn't necessarily either of them, while the DC is based on the casters highest stat and always adds proficiency. So the caster can guess your worst, or even not-best, save, he has a distinct advantage.

At low level, starting save DCs at 8 more or less makes up for not being proficient in a most saves. DCs tend to be 13 or so, your better save bonuses may be +5, your not-so good, +2, your worst, quite possibly, -1. Spells work about half the time unless they're unfortunate enough to target your best save. At the other end of the spectrum, your best save may be +11, but your not-so-good saves are mostly going to be +2 or so, still, though you'll have one save that's at +6 from proficiency, but not getting the bonus of your best stat, and your worst may well still be -1. But the DC's're up to 19. So, someone casting the same 1st level spell at you that you needed a natural 8 to save vs 19 levels ago, now that you both have 20's in your best stats & proficiency, you still need a natural 8 to save against, but if he can target your worst save, you'll need to roll a 20, not a 14. And you're generally, at best, treading water with saving throws, and very often getting /worse/ as you go up in levels.

I have a few problem with your explanation here. First, I would pretty strongly disagree with you about your last point. I don’t often see people treading water with their best saving throws. Typically, a rogue or bard making a decision save is going to beat it by at least 5, and with a max of +11 to saves without magic items, and a max DC of 19 without magic items, you’re gonna be succeeding that save roughly 60% of the time, not 50%. This might seem a bit nit-picky, but in a game with this much chance involved, probability is everything. There are also two other things you don’t seem to really take into account that complicate the issue. The first being that 99% of the time in D&D, you’re not fighting fellow party members, but rather monsters and enemies, a great many of which have magic resistance, already putting the spellcaster at a disadvantage when casting a spell on them. Even worse, they tend to have anywhere from 2 to 4 proficiency bonuses for saving throws, with their best ones often being higher than a player whose level matches their CR. Worst of all, many of the higher level enemies that you would face around the time that bounded accuracy becomes a problem for martial classes have legendary resistance, which in most cases is just a way to make sure that if by some miracle their magical resistance and proficiency bonuses fail them and they don’t manage to succeed the spell save, they can just choose to say they succeeded anyways. These abilities tend to put spellcasters using DC spells(which, at above 5th level, are essentially the only kind of spell) at a pretty big disadvantage.
The second thing to take into account are magic items. Up until now I’ve been trying to keep them out of the discussion, but if your table does use magic items, spellcasters are often put at an even larger advantage, as weapons that grant bonuses to attack rolls are incredibly plentiful, and exist at almost every rarity. Meanwhile, the only items that boost spell save DC’s are items that either increase an ability score above 20 (since, in this case, we’re focusing mainly on late game, and have been assuming a maxed out spellcasting stat for all our previous arguments),increase your proficiency bonus, or increase spell save DC on its own. As far as I’m aware, all items that do any of these three things are either very rare or legendary, meaning that they’re significantly less likely to be available to a spellcaster than the many weapons granting +1 or +2 bonuses to attack rolls that litter the DMG.
When taking both of these into account, it becomes a lot easier to see why the OP might be frustrated by a max Spell Save DC of 19. In my opinion, this could be pretty easily fixed by Wizards just releasing some higher level spells that use attack rolls rather than saving throws, or by simply releasing some lower rarity magic items that boost spell save DC.

 

[Coroc]

Well, cast bane the opposite of bless, plus do something to get the enemy on disadvantage, so now you did create a difficult save DC

 

[ClaytonCross]

5E is a little bit ambiguous about stat boundaries, but if for the sake of argument you cap stats at 30 and cap CRs at 30 and only allow DMG magic items, then the highest possible spell save DC is (I think) 34, for a CR 30 monster which is also a Cha 30 Warlock using an Ioun Stone of Mastery (+1 to proficiency bonus) and a Staff of Power (+2 to save DC) and a Rod of the Pact Keeper +3 (+3 to attack rolls and save DC).

But of course in reality the real maximum save DC is unbounded. It could be arbitrarily high. (But if you're running a sane campaign, it probably shouldn't be higher than 23 or so.)

As CapnZapp robe of the archmagi is +2 spell DC not the staff of power. This also clarifies the rod of the pact keeper since it has the "While holding this rod" ridder and depending on if a spell has a gold cost material component and how your GM runs the game , you may not be able to cast some spells holding a staff and a rod and receive both bonuses. While this doesn't break the spirit of answering the question I would like to take a more realistic approach.

… on that note while the DMG does talk about the max 30 stat, I have never seen it at a table... I have however seen the tome of leader ship for a Charisma 22.

So … in a very high magic campaign...
Warlock 12 / Sorcerer 8 mutlii-class
Base DC 8
Charisma 16 + 4 for 20 Charisma from ASI bonuses at lvl 4 and lvl 8, Tome of Leadership and Influence (very rare) for a total of 22 Charisma = +6 DC
level 20 character Proficiency bonus +6 increased by 1 from Ioun Stone of Mastery (Legendary, attunement 1) = +7 DC
Rod of the Pact Keeper (very rare version, attunement 2) = +3 DC
Robes of the Arch mage (Legendary, attunement 3) = +2 DC
Sorcerer Meta Magic: Heightened Spell (cost 3 sorcerer points) = effective temporary +5 due to target disadvantage on the save
-or- Warlock invocation Sign of ill Omen which grants the use of Bestow curse giving the target disadvantage on future saves as well.
Bane spell (warlock invocation Thief of Five Fates) = +1-4 DC
mind sliver (unearthed arcana warlock/wizard/sorcerer cantrip) = +1-4
Total 26 static and 39 effective temporary

While generally getting these items during a game would be highly unlikely I did do a couple of lvl 20 on shots over the years with DMG rules for creating high magic characters and we were allowed to buy magic items since you get a ton of gold. Since it was a one shot this was done because we would never be given a chance to spend it. It was then considered that the starting gold hoard your received also represented the opportunities of you had at searching and buying magic items as well. 2 Legendary items would still not be possible at this point. You might convince a GM to let you get the lose 3 uncommon, one rare, and 20,000gp + for one Legendary and one Very Rare magic item... but chances are your best bet for the second Legendary is picking up the Ioun Stone from a party member who did the same thing but died a tragic death in the game.

As a note though, the rod of the pact keeper III, the Robes of the Arch Mage, and using Sorcerer Meta Magic Heightened Spell I have seen at the same table more than once and COULD possibly come together on a Warlock 5 / Sorcerer 4 for a DC 22 (DC31 temp) on a level 9 character fighting CR8 or less monsters this would likely way more over powered than DC31 against level CR25 monsters. In that same train of thought, an early drop of Rod of the Pact Keeper III alone is a huge deal as the lowest rarity with the largest bonus but I don't find it broken because its only for warlocks who have so few spells then really need them to count if your GM is not doing multiple encounter days. (which I see quite often).

Disclaimer, I know table are distinct. I am just talking form my personal experience. There are certainly times when this might break a table but in general I don't see players trying to get more powerful as bad thing unless they are not doing it to improve but to cause malicious conflict AKA power gamers trying to break the game for the GM/or and make the rest of the party look bad.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Right which means, you need more than one spellcaster. 5e spellcasting is a team sport like volleyball....Set up your team mate, then Spike.

Missing with an attack is not the same as having the monster make a Saving Throw.
It is more akin to missing on all the attacks from your Action Surge, and you also can’t use Action Surge until a Long Rest.

A potion of Temporary +1,+2, +3 Spell DC is a a cool item. So to is a Scroll with a spell with a high Spell DC that is used for the spell on the scroll.

Legendary Resistance is looming in the future for any campaign going into higher tiers of play.

I would recommend that DM’s and Player’s recognize that consumables are going to be needed to keep Long Rest spellcasters on par with Short Rest characters on lengthy Adventuring Days.

Some spells are just going to be resisted,
Even before Legendary Resistance.