What is "better", a Celestial or Half-Celestial?

[RigaMortus]

Not sure if I worded that correctly, by "better" I mean, if given a choice, which template would you rather have (role-playing reasons aside)?

I would think that the Celestial would be stronger than the Half-Celestial, but to me, I think the Half-Celestial is a lot stronger and gets many more useful abilities and such.

Also, I notice that a Half-Celestial has an Advancement Level, so if you want to play as one, you have to sacrifice some Class levels. But why doesn't the Celestial have one as well?

 

[Yeoman]

I think the Level Adjustment (from Savage Species) for celestial/fiendish was +2, Half Celestial/Fiendish was +4 I think.

That said I personally like the half-breed better, because in my campaign Celestial and Infernal creatures breed often with humanoids. It's a cool campaign hook, and at least one character is planning on playing a half celestial monk.

 

[Voadam]

Celestial is much weaker unless they are balanced by ECL.

Celestial as a template is considered infused with a little touch of elemental goodness, while the half celestial is considered fully half elemental good, and a full celestial is fully powered by elemental goodness.

 

[Celebrim]

I think the reason you are confused is the multiple uses of the term 'Celestial'.

The celestial template simply means that you are native to the upper outer planes.

A celestial dog is no more than a dog which is born in one of the planes of good. In it is spiritually slightly more powerful than a normal dog, but it is basically a dog.

The half-celestial template however implies not that you had a parent native to the upper outer planes, but that that parent was one of the powerful races of beings that are known collectively as Celestials. For instance, if your parent was a Guardian Archon, or a Astral Deva, or a Planatar, then you would be a 'Half-Celestial'.

If a normal hound mated with a celestial hound, the resulting offspring _WOULD NOT_ have the half-celestial template. The would be normal dogs, or at best celestial dogs. If an awakened hound mated with a hound archon (however odd that maybe), the offspring(s) would have the half-celestial template - half-celestial dogs.

ECL for Half-Celestial should be at least +4 (not the +2 incorrectly given in the MM), and in my opinion +5 would not be a bad idea. At high levels, half-celestials/fiends are enormously powerful due to thier spell progression and innate defences, and thier attribute advantages in STR, INT, and CON eventually make up for the difference in HD.

 

[Trine]

ECL for Half-Celestial should be at least +4 (not the +2 incorrectly given in the MM), and in my opinion +5 would not be a bad idea.

I agree with the rest of your post except for that bit. The MM doesn't have ECL's printed in it, it has CR changes. The CR +2 is quite fair. The DMG has half-celestial ECL listed as Class Levels +3. I'd probably be inclined to push it up to +4, as Savage Species has it. It hurts to lose 4 levels worth of Hit Dice and BAB progression, but the template does give quite a bit.

 

[Celebrim]

Trine: Assuming +4 ECL, let's take the worst case of a 16th level Half-Celestial in a party of 20th level characters.

Compared to the 20th level characters he has 4 less HD, say between 10 and 26 h.p. depending on class. But the Half-Celestial has +4 CON, or +2 hp. per level, gaining 32 h.p.

Compared to the 20th level characters he has at most 4 less BAB (fighter progression), but he makes up for this by having +4 STR gaining +2 to attack and +2 damage in exchange.

Furthermore, he has +1 natural armor bonus, and +1 bonus to AC from higher Dex.

Compared to the 20th level characters he has roughly 1 less bonus to saves from class levels, but he has +2 bonus from higher CON, +2 bonus from higher WIS, and +1 bonus from higher DEX.

Compared to a 20th level character he is missing skill points (anywhere from 4 to realistically 48 or so for a ubersmart rouge), but he makes up for that by having +2 INT giving him 16 extra skill points, and having at least a +1 attribute modifier advantage in every skill. In most cases (save that ubersmart rouge) this will make up the difference.

Compared to 20th level spellcasters, he is missing 4 levels of spell progression, but in exchange he has gained innate spell casting as follows: protection from evil (x3), bless, aid, detect evil, cure serious wounds, neutralize poison, holy smite, remove disease, dispel evil, holy word, holy aura (x3), hallow, and symbol. This at the least very nearly compensates for his spell level loss in the worst case. In the best case, the half-celestial is a fighter class and all this spell progression is free!

And I would like to note that the free progression occurs in the best case, precisely when we've noted the worst case for giving up other things. The advantages in increased hit points, attack bonus, and so forth are much greater for a half-celestial spell caster.

Already, even at +4 ECL, the Half-Celestial has clearly advantaged himself over +0 ECL (normal) 20th level characters, but we're not done. What about the class benifits? The half celestial does lose 4 levels worth of class benifits (one or two bonus feats, or an extra rage per day, or a extra favored enemy, ect.), but in return the Half-Celestial gains _complete_ immunity to electricity, cold, acid, and disease, a +4 bonus to saves vs. poison, low light vision, and more than likely the innate ability to fly.

Compare a 16th level fighter half celestial with a 20th level non-templated fighter. Which would you rather take through the tomb of horrors? Which do you think is more likely to cruise through a tournament module?

Is there really any contest?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Trine: Assuming +4 ECL, let's take the worst case of a 16th level Half-Celestial in a party of 20th level characters.

Why? ECL 20 is the worst case for the nonhalf celestial PCs; it's the best case for the half-celestial. Biasing your sample in this way seems just as bad as biasing a half-ogre comparison by conducting it at level 2 or level 6 (the worst spots for the half-ogre).

Compared to the 20th level characters he has 4 less HD, say between 10 and 26 h.p. depending on class. But the Half-Celestial has +4 CON, or +2 hp. per level, gaining 32 h.p.

Compared to the 20th level characters he has at most 4 less BAB (fighter progression), but he makes up for this by having +4 STR gaining +2 to attack and +2 damage in exchange.

So at ECLs that are multiples of 5, the half celestial trades a -2 to hit for a +2 to damage.

At all other levels, the half celestial trades one fewer attack and a -2 to to hit for a +2 to damage.

Furthermore, he has +1 natural armor bonus, and +1 bonus to AC from higher Dex.

At ECL 20, +1 natural armor will result in exactly the same AC as +0. Both characters are likely to have +4 or +5 amulets of natural armor. The dex bonus may be present but may not be (depending upon the max dex for the armor).

Compared to the 20th level characters he has roughly 1 less bonus to saves from class levels, but he has +2 bonus from higher CON, +2 bonus from higher WIS, and +1 bonus from higher DEX.

Actually, that would be one less point in the weak saves and two less in the strong saves. A half-celestial fighter would have a net gain of +1 to saves. A half-celestial Cleric would have a net gain of +0 to saves. And a half-celestial monk would have a net loss of -1 to saves. Half celestial paladins, would have dramatically better saves, however, due to their charisma.

Compared to a 20th level character he is missing skill points (anywhere from 4 to realistically 48 or so for a ubersmart rouge), but he makes up for that by having +2 INT giving him 16 extra skill points, and having at least a +1 attribute modifier advantage in every skill. In most cases (save that ubersmart rouge) this will make up the difference.

For 2 skill point/level classes, it's 8 skill points. For four skill point/level classes, it's 16 points. So, the character will often come out ahead in skill points (because fighters, paladins, rangers, barbarians, monks, and rogues make the best use of the half-celestial bonusses)--but in most cases will simply break even.

Compared to 20th level spellcasters, he is missing 4 levels of spell progression, but in exchange he has gained innate spell casting as follows: protection from evil (x3), bless, aid, detect evil, cure serious wounds, neutralize poison, holy smite, remove disease, dispel evil, holy word, holy aura (x3), hallow, and symbol. This at the least very nearly compensates for his spell level loss in the worst case. In the best case, the half-celestial is a fighter class and all this spell progression is free!

It's very nice for characters who normally don't cast spells. For full time spellcasters, it's not even close to even. Giving up the possibility of ever casting 9th level spells and not getting 8th level spells (except possibly symbol) until ECL 18 is not even close to a fair trade. The 20th level cleric could cast an extra Holy Word, Holy Aura, and Symbol just from spell progression. And then he can also cast Gate, Implosion, and True Resurrection. Similarly, I don't think many wizards would give up extra spell slots and the ability to cast Wish, Meteor Swarm, and Time Stop to cast Symbol and Holy Aura a couple of times per day.

And I would like to note that the free progression occurs in the best case, precisely when we've noted the worst case for giving up other things. The advantages in increased hit points, attack bonus, and so forth are much greater for a half-celestial spell caster.

If you go back and do the math, you'll notice that, even a wizard doesnt' get any advantage in attack bonus. They just end up with a net +2 to damage. The hit point increase may be more significant for spellcasters than fighters in terms of percentages but certainly isn't for spellcasters vis a vis rogues.

Already, even at +4 ECL, the Half-Celestial has clearly advantaged himself over +0 ECL (normal) 20th level characters, but we're not done. What about the class benifits? The half celestial does lose 4 levels worth of class benifits (one or two bonus feats, or an extra rage per day, or a extra favored enemy, ect.), but in return the Half-Celestial gains _complete_ immunity to electricity, cold, acid, and disease, a +4 bonus to saves vs. poison, low light vision, and more than likely the innate ability to fly.

The half-celestial gains some nifty bonusses, but I don't think that it's nearly as clear cut as you make it out to be. . . .

Compare a 16th level fighter half celestial with a 20th level non-templated fighter. Which would you rather take through the tomb of horrors? Which do you think is more likely to cruise through a tournament module?

How about comparing a 1st level half-celestial fighter to a 5th level human fighter. Which would you rather take through the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil? Which is more likely to cruise through the modules?

Obviously by setting the comparison at ECL 5, I'm biasing the comparison just as much as you are by setting it at ECL 20. However, the point is that the comparison needs to be made across the board if you want to come out with an accurate assessment of ECL. Looking at it and guestimating, I don't think that a half-celestial character pulls even to his non-templated brethren until ECL 12-14. And I don't think he pulls ahead until ECL 20--and that's in a best case scenario such as the paladin class. A half-celestial wizard or cleric will never pull even with their non-templated brethren.

Is there really any contest?

Yes there is. And the non-templated character actually wins at more levels than he loses if the ECL is +4.

 

[Greybar]

Note that Savage Species would encourage the ECL5 comparison, as that is the definition method.

For real-world GMs, comparing the character proposed by the player is the best answer, of course.

Good discussion though, folks.

John

 

[Staffan]

A celestial dog is no more than a dog which is born in one of the planes of good. In it is spiritually slightly more powerful than a normal dog, but it is basically a dog.

The half-celestial template however implies not that you had a parent native to the upper outer planes, but that that parent was one of the powerful races of beings that are known collectively as Celestials. For instance, if your parent was a Guardian Archon, or a Astral Deva, or a Planatar, then you would be a 'Half-Celestial'.

This is shown slightly better on the evil side of the coin, where the templates are named "fiendish" and "half-fiend". The problem is that the adjective form of the noun "celestial" is also celestial.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Heh. "I summon a celestial-ish dog."

Celestial-Lite... not quite Celestial enough.

-Hyp.