What Is A Superhero?

[Reynard]

Spinning out of the "best superhero movie" thread so that one can get back on topic, this thread is about defining what a superhero is, and what the superhero genre is. What makes a superhero a superhero in different media, and what sorts of stories are "superhero stories."

This debate grew out of my contention that Robocop is a superhero. To me, it isn't even a fringe case. In New Detroit, Robocop is part Captain America and part Punisher. But others disagree.

So what do you think? What makes a character a superhero, versus just an action hero or a sci-fi hero or whatever? What makes a story a superhero story, as opposed to a different kind of story? Is a story automatically a superhero story if the protagonist is a superhero? Is it not if the character isn't?


And just because this is EN World: how does that interact with superhero gaming?

 

[payn]

I think there needs to be a super human element to differentiate from a regular hero. In the case of Robocop, yeah his body is titanium and he has computer assisted aim. Pretty super if you ask me. Punisher is a bit in the weeds. Is anything about him super? Not really, also id argue he is more of an anti-hero. He is best used as a contrast to super heroes and villains and the distance between them. Where as, Robocop actually wants to do good and help people, which is heroic (particularly in a dystopian future Detroit).

So, I guess I look for a few elements. First super human characteristics, second a notion to protect and help people at expense of one self.

 

[Reynard]

I think there needs to be a super human element to differentiate from a regular hero. In the case of Robocop, yeah his body is titanium and he has computer assisted aim. Pretty super if you ask me. Punisher is a bit in the weeds. Is anything about him super? Not really, also id argue he is more of an anti-hero. He is best used as a contrast to super heroes and villains and the distance between them. Where as, Robocop actually wants to do good and help people, which is heroic (particularly in a dystopian future Detroit).

So, I guess I look for a few elements. First super human characteristics, second a notion to protect and help people at expense of one self.

Punisher is a weird one because he has changed so much over the years, up to and including being some sort of angelic avenger thing.

 

[payn]

Punisher is a weird one because he has changed so much over the years, up to and including being some sort of angelic avenger thing.

Yeah, I think thats to grapple with the idea of where he fits in the Marvel family. Even the films have waffled (even though solider of fortune out for blood is the most common depiction). Punisher fit neatly in the Netflix now Disney series of the Defenders. I dont think he would work well with the Avengers.

 

[Reynard]

Yeah, I think thats to grapple with the idea of where he fits in the Marvel family. Even the films have waffled (even though solider of fortune out for blood is the most common depiction). Punisher fit neatly in the Netflix now Disney series of the Defenders. I dont think he would work well with the Avengers.

Does Punisher suddenly become a super(anti)hero when he uses high tech weapons to take down supervillains normal guns won't kill?

 

[payn]

Does Punisher suddenly become a super(anti)hero when he uses high tech weapons to take down supervillains normal guns won't kill?

Its possible, though I really think folks should give up trying to push punisher over the line. I think its fine to keep him as the Marvel black sheep anti-hero. Ghost Rider seems to kind of ride that line too, but I have no idea what they have done with GR since 80-90's

 

[Deset Gled]

I think there needs to be a super human element to differentiate from a regular hero. In the case of Robocop, yeah his body is titanium and he has computer assisted aim. Pretty super if you ask me.

I agree that there should be a super human element to super heroes. The reason that Iron Man's or Batman's gadgets are treated as superhero powers is because they are current day stories but represent tech that does not (or cannot) exist in the current, real world. Their goodies are effectively treated as fantasy rather than speculative fiction.

But I'm not sure if RoboCop has that. His stuff (body armor, weapons systems, etc) is shown to just be a very expensive amalgamation of products that are commercially available. His tech is essentially equivalent to that of ED209 and other robots. He's literally built by Omni Consumer Products. In the original movie the cybernetics are not treated as new science or otherworldly power, it's just the natural progression of technology. It's the same tech that you expect any large company or police department to have regular access to; even the real estate companies in RoboCop's world use VR and robots to sell houses. From that POV, RoboCop is sci-fi, not a superhero.

I think part of the confusion for this is because the original movie is set as a "5 minutes in the future" dystopia. But that's 5 minutes in the future from 1987. It's easy to see how people who watch the movie now don't see it as futuristic. It easily comes across as modern or past times, which throws it right back into the "tech that does not (or cannot) exist in the current real world" definition that I just said makes Iron Man and Batman superheroes.

I think it's actually okay to say that RoboCop was sci-fi in it's first 1987 incarnation, but morphed into a superhero later. Whether that happened in RoboCop 3 when he got more comic-booky and received more powers, during the kids cartoon show, or just as a result of time marching on would be hard to pin down.

FWIW, I said the same thing about Batman in the other thread (Best superhero movie of all time?) ; he was essentially a detective first and a superhero later.

 

[Alzrius]

A miserable little pile of secret identities.

 

[Reynard]

I agree that there should be a super human element to super heroes. The reason that Iron Man's or Batman's gadgets are treated as superhero powers is because they represent tech that does not (or cannot) exist in the current, real world. Their goodies are effectively treated as fantasy rather than speculative fiction.

But I'm not sure if RoboCop has that. His stuff (body armor, weapons systems, etc) is shown to just be a very expensive amalgamation of products that are commercially available. His tech is essentially equivalent to that of ED209 and other robots. He's literally built by Omni Consumer Products. In the original movie the cybernetics are not treated as new science or otherworldly power, it's just the natural progression of technology. It's the same tech that you expect any large company or police department to have regular access to; even the real estate companies in RoboCop's world use VR and robots to sell houses. From that POV, RoboCop is sci-fi, not a superhero.

I think part of the confusion for this is because the original movie is set as a "5 minutes in the future" dystopia. But that's 5 minutes in the future from 1987. It's easy to see how people who watch the movie now don't see it as futuristic. It easily comes across as modern day or even past times, which throws it right back into the "tech that does not (or cannot) exist in the current real world" definition that I just said makes Iron Man and Batman superheroes.

I think it's actually okay to say that RoboCop was sci-fi in it's first 1987 incarnation, but morphed into a superhero later. Whether that happened in RoboCop 3 when he got more comic-booky and received more powers, during the kids cartoon show, or just as a result of time marching on would be hard to pin down.

FWIW, I said the same thing about Batman in the other thread (Best superhero movie of all time? he was essentially a detective first and a superhero later.

This doesn't make any sense to me. RoboCop is a superhero. The first RoboCop movie was his origin story.
Batman is a superhero. Year One was his origin story.

 

[Umbran]

Is anything about him super? Not really...

Well, the various versions of "stats" for Marvel characters (like the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, and others) list him basically as "absolute peak human" in several aspects. He's so single minded that he has trained himself to "the best of the best of the best, sir!" levels of fighting ability, far beyond what even elite soldiers generally attain.

And the guns. So many guns...