D&D General What feels like D&D vs. what D&D should keep

[JEB]

Comparing the "feel" poll with the "keep" poll (elements in different tiers between the polls in bold):

	What makes D&D feel like D&D?	What elements does D&D need to keep?
Very important (80% and up)	Ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha) [87.1%] Distinct character classes [87.1%] Levels [87.1%] Hit points [81.8%]	Distinct character classes [95.4%] Levels [93.1%] Ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha) [88.5%] Hit points [86.9%] Using multiple types of dice [84.6%]
Important (60% to 80%)	Armor Class [73.5%] Using multiple types of dice [70.5%] Saving throws [66.7%]	Armor Class [80.0%] Saving throws [76.9%] Distinct character races/lineages [74.6%] Lists of specific spells [70.0%] Initiative [66.9%]
Debatable (40% to 60%)	Distinct character races/lineages [58.3%] Experience points [50.8%] Lists of specific spells [49.2%] Alignment [45.5%]	Lists of specific magic items [57.7%] Advantage/disadvantage [49.2%] Damage types [48.5%] Multiclassing [45.4%] Proficiencies [45.4%] Lists of specific equipment [45.4%] Conditions [43.8%] Creature types [43.8%] Experience points [43.1%] Feats [42.3%]
Less important (20% to 40%)	Lists of specific magic items [39.4%] Initiative [36.4%] Hit dice [24.2%] Lists of specific equipment [24.2%]	Hit dice [40.0%] Backgrounds [37.7%] Alignment [34.6%] Surprise [30.8%] Deities [30.0%]
Not important (20% and below)	Creature types [17.4%] Deities [16.7%] Great Wheel cosmology [15.9%] Multiclassing [15.9%] Feats [10.6%] Proficiencies [10.6%] Damage types [9.1%] Surprise [5.3%] Advantage/disadvantage [4.5%] Conditions [4.5%] Challenge ratings [3.8%] World Axis cosmology [3.0%] Backgrounds [2.3%]	Great Wheel cosmology [20.0%] Challenge ratings [20.0%] World Axis cosmology [8.5%]

Thoughts:

• It seems pretty clear that a D&D that doesn't have levels, classes, ability scores, or hit points is going to be a hard sell to most players (or at least the ones here). Top tier on both "feel" and "keep". Armor Class and multiple types of dice both seem pretty strongly indicated as well.
• As is obvious, there are an awful lot of things that ranked low on the "feel" poll and much higher on the "keep" poll. Clearly an element doesn't have to be something that feels distinctly D&D to be worth keeping. In fact, nearly everything moved upward in the rankings to some degree when the question changed.
• On the other hand, alignment conspicuously moved down a tier. A little less than half agree it's a distinctly D&D element, but only about a third actively want to keep it, the rest could live without it.
• I'm curious what it means that character races aren't part of D&D's "feel" to a little less than half of folks, but a clear majority want to keep them anyway.
• There seem to be ambiguous feelings about XP.
• Sorry, World Axis fans, but this doesn't bode well for a comeback. (Not that Great Wheel fans have a lot more to brag about.)

 

[DammitVictor]

• On the other hand, alignment conspicuously moved down a tier. A little less than half agree it's a distinctly D&D element, but only about a third actively want to keep it, the rest could live without it.

An element can be both a uniquely definining trait of a property, and something that keeps that property from being what it's trying to be. D&D's Alignment system, like D&D's multiverse cosmology and theology, is a very specific design decision that people have taken as given for decades pretty much entirely because they used it in D&D-- and it really, really, does not fit the majority of D&D settings or fantasy settings that people want to use with D&D.

I'm not shy about my belief that alignment should be dropped in the next version of D&D, that it should have been dropped in the last four versions of D&D-- like other Gygaxian malignancies that were excised between 1e and 2e-- but, more than that, I want people to understand and acknowledge that alignment isn't the only moral system, that it isn't any moral system, and that it's only necessary and/or beneficial in settings that are designed to focus on it.

• I'm curious what it means that character races aren't part of D&D's "feel" to a little less than half of folks, but a clear majority want to keep them anyway.

I'm genuinely surprised, because I expected that "character races" would have been a top-tier answer on both polls-- with all of the heated argument taking place demonstrating that the problem is there's no consensus on what form they should take in the next D&D.

• Sorry, World Axis fans, but this doesn't bode well for a comeback. (Not that Great Wheel fans have a lot more to brag about.)

I sure would love if the Great Wheel made a grand and glorious comeback... as the Planescape Campaign Setting, and did not otherwise impose itself upon Faerun or Eberron, or gods forbid, the new Magic settings with their own multiversal cosmology.

I would be interested to see a version of the World Axis tightly wrapped around a setting that's meant to really delve into it.

You know, The Afterlife doesn't need to be a defining feature of any fantasy world, even if people do frequently come back from it.

 

[Minigiant]

As is obvious, there are an awful lot of things that ranked low on the "feel" poll and much higher on the "keep" poll. Clearly an element doesn't have to be something that feels distinctly D&D to be worth keeping. In fact, nearly everything moved upward in the rankings to some degree when the question changed

I think a lot of them are things people either want as official options or changes drastically mechanic. Keeping something you don't like suggests implementation disagreement.

So example

I'm curious what it means that character races aren't part of D&D's "feel" to a little less than half of folks, but a clear majority want to keep them anyway.

Races. I never like how D&D does races and still don't. Combine that with races being mechanical or narratively weak in some editions, some might not feel races but want to keep them.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think the difference in the two posts show that a lot of things you people saying you should "keep", you could actually get away with chopping without big problems.

Experience points are interesting because I think a decade ago or so people would clearly have been in favour of them, but now so many people just don't use them, using other advancement methods (often basically amounting to "you level up when the DM says you do"), and XP doesn't offer much positive to the game that can't be added in a less annoying way via other methods.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm genuinely surprised, because I expected that "character races" would have been a top-tier answer on both polls-- with all of the heated argument taking place demonstrating that the problem is there's no consensus on what form they should take in the next D&D.

Allow me to chuck in a few possible reasons for that, as pure speculation:

Some people might like the idea of some different races/species being playable as PCs but - like me - think the last few editions have gone way overboard with it, turning too many once-"monster" creatures into playables.

Others might see the ongoing weakening of species-based mechanics as an irreversible and-or welcome trend and are just moving on with a shrug.

Still others might all along have seen different species as nothing more than Humans-with-extras and thus wouldn't care much if they went away.

 

[JEB]

I think there's definitely room for some interesting questions about how folks treat character races in their D&D games, and how they want the game to treat them, based on the mixed poll results so far. Assuming one can figure out how to ask those questions in just the right way...

 

[Democratus]

In the first D&D I played there weren't different races. It was just the core classes, all assumed to be human. Later Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings were added as classes.

The idea seemed to be that only humans varied in their pursuits, while other races were much more uniform - at least the ones who went adventuring.

 

[fearsomepirate]

D&D feels less like D&D to me the more nonhuman the PC menagerie becomes. A Tortle/Tabaxi/Tiefling/Dragonborn party feels not much like D&D to me.

 

[Charlaquin]

I'm curious what it means that character races aren't part of D&D's "feel" to a little less than half of folks, but a clear majority want to keep them anyway.

My hypothesis would be that it ranked low on feel because it’s not unique to D&D. Lots of sci-fi and fantasy RPG have character races or something similar, so it doesn’t really feel specifically D&D. On the other hand, they’re still a popular feature to have, despite not being particular to D&D.

 

[Charlaquin]

D&D feels less like D&D to me the more nonhuman the PC menagerie becomes. A Tortle/Tabaxi/Tiefling/Dragonborn party feels not much like D&D to me.

Funny, to me, D&D is the only place I would expect to see such a menagerie.