Weathercock's Better Berserker Barbarian

[Weathercock]

At this point, it's pretty commonly accepted that the Barbarian's Berserker archetype is horribly underpowered, and often even considered a trap. The biggest part of this comes from a general lack of features in addition to Frenzy being entirely unusable.

Looking harder at it, it appears to me that all of this comes from the fact that the Berserker's levelling progression is completely and utterly screwed. Getting a bonus action attack at level 3 (especially with GWM) is insanely powerful, and pushes the Berserker's low level damage cap to ludicrous levels. Of course, with a feature so powerful at that level, it was restricted by applying the exhaustion effect to discourage its use outside of all but the most crucial of situations. However, this doesn't scale so well, and once other front line characters gain access to feats and their extra attacks, Frenzy's value, even if you were to remove its nasty side effect starts to decline incredibly sharply, leaving it almost unusable as it is. It doesn't help that most of the archetype's offensive value can be replicated with the Polearm Mastery feat. And with the Totem Warrior's new totemic attunements in SCAG coming up to steal even more of the Berserker's thunder, it seems like it can't get a break.

So I opted to come up with something a little more reasonable. The Better Berserker.

UPDATE 15/11/05: Bloodlust altered to no longer use a bonus action (requires commitment to Reckless Attack instead)
UPDATE 15/11/08: Frenzy altered to require commitment to Reckless Attack to activate bonus action attack

Bloodlust
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, your rage drives you to draw your enemies’ blood, no matter the cost. When you miss with a melee weapon attack on your turn while using Reckless Attack feature, you may make an additional melee weapon as part of your attack action. You may only use this feature once per turn.

Intimidating Presence
At 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Intimidation skill. If you already have proficiency in Intimidation, then your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check that uses Intimidation.

Mindless Rage
Beginning at 6th level, you can’t be charmed or frightened while raging. If you are charmed or frightened when you enter your rage, the effect is suspended for the duration of the rage.

Retaliation
Starting at 10th level, when you take damage from a creature that is within 5 feat of you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.

Frenzy
Starting at 14th level, your rage drives you into a bloodthirsty frenzy. When you are raging and using the Reckless Attack feature, you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action.


The main problem with Frenzy at level 3 is that it raises the Berserker's damage cap to ludicrous levels. By replacing the old Frenzy with Bloodlust, we get a powerful archetype feature that still manages to keep the Berserker's potential damage output at reasonable levels. And without the need for exhaustion to keep the ability in check at lower levels, it now scales far better, allowing it to compete with Polearm Mastery in value.

Intimidating Presence, as it was, was an utterly terrible, unusable ability that served no purpose but to fill the gap in the barren wasteland that was the old Berserker's level progression. By turning it into a non-combat skill, the Berserker now gains some utility outside of just bashing things on the head, encouraging more flavourful play off the battlefield.
Mindless Rage as it was was always solid.

Moving Retaliation to 10th level, instead of 14th manages to serve two functions. First, it helps to keep the Berserker's average damage rate competitive moving into tier 3 of gameplay, but secondly, it also keeps that damage ceiling in check by maximizing action economy that was already there, rather than increasing damage output overall. Feats like Sentinal and Polearm Mastery still offer stiff competition to Retaliation, but moving it to a lower level helps to keep it competitive now.

Lastly, we finally increase the damage cap with the new and improved Frenzy, now with no more silly Exhaustion mechanic. Essentially functioning as an enhanced Bloodlust at this point, all the pieces finally come together, and Berserker retains its moderate potential/high consistent damage rate without having to deal with the baggage of the old Frenzy's poor scaling.


So... any thoughts? I wanted to rebalance the Berserker in order to make it worth considering as a choice against Totem Warrior, especially since not all of us want our Barbarians to be flower-children-druid-baby-tryhards (and not all of us are fans of the stunties either). And while this variant might still possibly need a thing to push it over the top, I think that it at least turns the Berserker from something that was almost unusable into something that's at the very least viable.

 

[dregntael]

On paper, I like this a lot. You managed to fix all glaring problems without making any really big changes. The thing I'm not too sure about is Intimidating Presence, I actually liked the fact that a barbarian can do something in combat besides dealing damage. Maybe it could work in a way similarly to the sleep spell, affecting multiple targets based on their number of remaining hit points?

 

[Weathercock]

I was considering adding some sort of "Battle Cry" or "Brutal Execution" ability, something like an AoE fear activated upon inflicting a critical or killing an enemy. But I do also believe that each archetype deserves having something of value outside of combat, and I also wanted to avoid going too far with adding extra fluff that would bring other things into question concerning balance.

 

[WaywardWaffle]

Something you should think about is to avoid locking out certain class builds. With intimidating presence you are giving proficiency, or expertise in intimidate. What if someone already has expertise from a multiclass?

Secondly, the extra attack as a bonus action may lock out someone from using an offhand weapon as a barbarian (which to be fair is a silly thing to do in the first place, but is still a thing you are allowed to do and it shouldn't be cut off)

Also about intimidating presence... it's just kind of not interesting I guess is the best way to put that? I know every class feature doesn't have to be a bomb unique idea but just slapping proficiency or expertise onto a skill doesn't really feel like a reward for reaching that level in the class.

 

[Weathercock]

Something you should think about is to avoid locking out certain class builds. With intimidating presence you are giving proficiency, or expertise in intimidate. What if someone already has expertise from a multiclass?

It could easily be treated in the same way as Purple Dragon Knight's bonus to Persuasion checks, giving you an extra skill if you already have proficiency in the one given by the ability, and if that's what you'd prefer at your table, go for it, but I wanted to keep things as reigned in as possible, opting to focus purely on what is broken about the archetype on a fundamental level (for example, an optimized Totem Warrior is still going to be a clearly better option for most of the game, but at least this Berserker now has a viable role in most levels of play) , adding as little in the way of "extra" features as possible, so as to stay true to what might have been originally intended by WotC.

Secondly, the extra attack as a bonus action may lock out someone from using an offhand weapon as a barbarian (which to be fair is a silly thing to do in the first place, but is still a thing you are allowed to do and it shouldn't be cut off)

This is definitely a hard one, and I wanted to give other ways of offering the extra attack without encroaching on the bonus action, but GWM and Polearm Mastery just ended up being too powerful that way. Given the choice, I opted to not balance the archetype around a mechanic (TWF) that is fundamentally broken in the first place. In order to fix Berserker in a way that also makes TWF remotely viable for it, you'd have to redesign the entire archetype from the ground up, which is something I'm trying to avoid as much as possible with this build (but something that I'd definitely encourage someone to try).

Also about intimidating presence... it's just kind of not interesting I guess is the best way to put that? I know every class feature doesn't have to be a bomb unique idea but just slapping proficiency or expertise onto a skill doesn't really feel like a reward for reaching that level in the class.

Which is why I repackaged it as a ribbon to go with the level 3 core feature, which is more than can be said of Purple Dragon Knight at level 7. There are definitely a lot of things you can do with the Berserker concept that can be both thematically and mechanically intriguing (for example, if rebuilding from the ground up, Totem Warrior's new Tiger Attunement would have instead been a fantastic level 3 feature for a Berserker, but Wizards opted to be hell-bent on making sure that Totem Warrior was the only archetype players should pick), but I wanted to avoid adding extra flash and focus on working with what (extremely bare) tools are already there.

 

[Macv12]

Frenzy, as presented here, invalidates Bloodlust. It's as if you don't have that feature anymore, which actually puts you behind the curve at that point, as well as making the archetype feel sparse.

Making Bloodlust a BA seems counterproductive, for the reason above and for the conflicts with other options. (You can still replicate this with Polearm Master in a way, and average damage is probably better because PM actually does raise the damage ceiling, while Bloodlust doesn't). I would probably make Bloodlust a non-action, but limited to once per turn. This also keeps the ceiling but isn't so obstructive. It's basically super-advantage, but it feels more rage-y.

Also, level 14 is a long time to wait for a BA attack without taking any feats or dual-wielding or anything to get one. If you do take PM or Great Weapon Master in the mean time, the BA benefits of those are also made superfluous once you get this feature, so again, you essentially lose features. Not that a no-questions-asked full-fledged BA attack isn't better than the other BA attacks you'll get, but it would be tastier if there wasn't a direct conflict like that.

I wonder if taking some amount of damage to make an extra (non-BA) attack would work? IIRC the playtest had something like that.

 

[Weathercock]

Frenzy, as presented here, invalidates Bloodlust. It's as if you don't have that feature anymore, which actually puts you behind the curve at that point, as well as making the archetype feel sparse.

Making Bloodlust a BA seems counterproductive, for the reason above and for the conflicts with other options. (You can still replicate this with Polearm Master in a way, and average damage is probably better because PM actually does raise the damage ceiling, while Bloodlust doesn't). I would probably make Bloodlust a non-action, but limited to once per turn. This also keeps the ceiling but isn't so obstructive. It's basically super-advantage, but it feels more rage-y.

Also, level 14 is a long time to wait for a BA attack without taking any feats or dual-wielding or anything to get one. If you do take PM or Great Weapon Master in the mean time, the BA benefits of those are also made superfluous once you get this feature, so again, you essentially lose features. Not that a no-questions-asked full-fledged BA attack isn't better than the other BA attacks you'll get, but it would be tastier if there wasn't a direct conflict like that.

As I had noted in my first post, Frenzy is meant to function as an "Enhanced Bloodlust," just without such a derivative name, although I do understand the concern, and definitely have my own concerning the numbers game.

Where power is concerned, Polearm Master comes close on average, but not quite as high (outside of the clearly higher ceiling, and excluding how easy it is to get AoO with Polearm Mastery). That said, it's hard to balance anything to act as an alternative to Polearm Mastery without being ridiculous in its own right, especially at earlier levels, since the feat is so insanely powerful as it is. It's pretty safe to say that, without some extremely powerful bonus action feature (one far too powerful to allow at early levels, such as full bonus action attacks with heavy weapons at level 3...), Polearm Mastery is always going to be the best tool for any given job. I just want something that can at least keep up with it, without forcing players into that hole.

The problem with removing Bloodlust from the bonus action is that it ends up becoming quite powerful, increasing the Berserker's average damage potential to quite a high place once you hit level 14. My build kept the average damage output slightly lower(lower levels)/on par(higher levels) with the old Berserker in exchange for more reliability. If you make Bloodlust its own free action, it the later game damage output becomes quite scary. Here's some calculations (there might be some minor rounding errors, but the numbers should be mostly solid):

Weathercock's Better Berserker raging, reckless attack DPR with great weapon mastery

Level 5 v AC 13: 44.8 (Str +4) <-- 124.8 per 3 rounds, 304.0 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Greatsword)
Level 11 v AC 15: 50.3 (Str +5) <-- 140.1 per 3 rounds, 341.3 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Greatsword)
Level 11 v AC 15: 70.1 (Str +5) <-- 199.5 per 3 rounds, 479.1 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Retaliation) (Greatsword)
Level 14 v AC 18: 52.7 (Str +5) <-- 140.6 per 3 rounds, 351.4 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Greataxe)
Level 14 v AC 18: 70.3 (Str +5) <-- 193.3 per 3 rounds, 474.5 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Retaliation) (Greataxe)
Level 20 v AC 19: 69.4 (Str +7) <-- 185.1 per 3 rounds, 462.6 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Greataxe)
Level 20 v AC 19: 92.6 (Str +7) <-- 254.6 per 3 rounds, 625.0 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Retaliation) (Greataxe)

Against

Weathercock's Better Berserker raging, reckless attack DPR with great weapon mastery (Free Bloodlust)

Level 5 v AC 13: 46.2 (Str +4) <-- 127.7 per 3 rounds, 312.4 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Greatsword)
Level 11 v AC 15: 52.0 (Str +5) <-- 143.5 per 3 rounds, 351.5 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Greatsword)
Level 11 v AC 15: 71.7 (Str +5) <-- 202.8 per 3 rounds, 489.5 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Retaliation) (Greatsword)
Level 14 v AC 18: 63.2 (Str +5) <-- 161.6 per 3 rounds, 414.4 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Greataxe)
Level 14 v AC 18: 80.8 (Str +5) <-- 214.3 per 3 rounds, 537.6 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Retaliation) (Greataxe)
Level 20 v AC 19: 79.6 (Str +7) <-- 205.5 per 3 rounds, 523.9 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Greataxe)
Level 20 v AC 19: 102.8 (Str +7) <-- 275.0 per 3 rounds, 686.3 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (Retaliation) (Greataxe)


For comparison, here's some calculations for a Totem Warrior Barbarian using a Polearm (with and without the easy AoO granted by Polearm Mastery).

Barbarian raging, reckless attack DPR with great weapon mastery (Halberd), polearm mastery

Level 5 v AC 13: 42.6 (Str +3) <-- 112.9 per 3 rounds, 283.4 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup)
Level 11 v AC 15: 48.1 (Str +4) <-- 129.7 per 3 rounds, 322.1 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup)
Level 20 v AC 19: 62.9 (Str +7) <-- 169.8 per 3 rounds, 421.4 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup)
Level 20 v AC 19: 66.1 (Str +7) <-- 176.2 per 3 rounds, 440.6 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (SCAG Tiger Totemic Attunement)

Barbarian raging, reckless attack DPR with great weapon mastery (Halberd), polearm mastery, reaction included

Level 5 v AC 13: 57.4 (Str +3) <-- 159.3 per 3 rounds, 388.9 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup)
Level 11 v AC 15: 64.9 (Str +4) <-- 180.2 per 3 rounds, 439.8 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup)
Level 20 v AC 19: 84.7 (Str +7) <-- 235.4 per 3 rounds, 574.3 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup)
Level 20 v AC 19: 88.1 (Str +7) <-- 242.2 per 3 rounds, 594.5 per 7 rounds (1 turn setup) (SCAG Tiger Totemic Attunement)

Overall, I'm not sure how I feel about that disparity. I want to avoid dragging this archetype into territory that could be considered OP (which is usually what a full-on arms race against Polearm Mastery can turn into), as I do want to keep things sensible (and, as much as I can, discourage reliance on Polearm Mastery, because it is ridiculous and its centralizing power limits flavour and diversity) On the other hand, your point is extremely valid, and now more than ever, because thanks to the buffs SCAG gave to Totem Warrior, with the right feat selection it can have a very easy time keeping up with what I've offered (if you include Tiger Totemic Attunement, a Polearm Mastery, GWM Totem Warrior past level 14 and on has about 4 less DPR than my Better Berserker), in addition to its own unique (and extremely potent) benefits. But does that warrant increasing the damage output? With this in mind, I'll append my original post to free Bloodlust from the bonus action entirely for now.

I wonder if taking some amount of damage to make an extra (non-BA) attack would work? IIRC the playtest had something like that.

This is something that I really don't want to work with. Self-damaging abilities are incredibly difficult to balance properly, and honestly, not worth the effort. Unless the game has systems built from the ground up to take such a resource system into account (which is something 5e doesn't, and probably why it was dumped from the playtest as it was), the output and the cost of such features can get out of hand in either direction very quickly.
Retaliation is already a feature that requires the loss of health to activate (...whereas Polearm Mastery, once again, can get that effect easily for free...). The last thing Berserker needs is more reasons to be a healing nightmare.

 

[Macv12]

As I had noted in my first post, Frenzy is meant to function as an "Enhanced Bloodlust," just without such a derivative name, although I do understand the concern, and definitely have my own concerning the numbers game.

I do understand that, but it just feels very flat. Usually upgrades like that are more uses of some resource, but even then, subclass features rarely take that form, since they have to account for a lot of character identity with those four or five features. Removing the condition for that BA attack and making it something the character will probably spam every turn also makes that character a little flatter once they hit that level, so my preference would be for these features to be unconnected.

I don't have much problem with the damage you calculated, myself. It's a nice bonus, but not overwhelming. To me it beats the alternative, which is stronger negative synergy with several options.

Where power is concerned, Polearm Master comes close on average, but not quite as high (outside of the clearly higher ceiling, and excluding how easy it is to get AoO with Polearm Mastery). That said, it's hard to balance anything to act as an alternative to Polearm Mastery without being ridiculous in its own right, especially at earlier levels, since the feat is so insanely powerful as it is.

I'll amend something I said: a Polearm Master should have better average damage than someone without it, when using a polearm. I was bringing it up because you said PBH Frenzy can be mostly replaced with PM, and I don't see that your new feature fixes that, especially when it becomes unconditional later on.

It's pretty safe to say that, without some extremely powerful bonus action feature (one far too powerful to allow at early levels, such as full bonus action attacks with heavy weapons at level 3...), Polearm Mastery is always going to be the best tool for any given job. I just want something that can at least keep up with it, without forcing players into that hole.

I'll just note my own perspective, which is that anyone who uses a polearm should be benefitting from Polearm Master, since they paid a big price for that feat. This makes PM "mandatory" for a damage-optimized polearm build, but I'm fine with that. In 3.5 it might be a problem if one feat was hands-down mandatory for an optimized build, but that's a feature of 5e's system. PM is the designated feat for being the best with polearms, GWM is the designated feat for being the best with two-handers, etc. If your subclass did make PM superfluous (which the PHB zerker nearly does, to be fair), I think that would be a problem.

(...) thanks to the buffs SCAG gave to Totem Warrior, with the right feat selection it can have a very easy time keeping up with what I've offered (if you include Tiger Totemic Attunement, a Polearm Mastery, GWM Totem Warrior past level 14 and on has about 4 less DPR than my Better Berserker), in addition to its own unique (and extremely potent) benefits. But does that warrant increasing the damage output?

The berserker should be the best at damage, I think. The PHB balances this by making it all Rage-only and using exhaustion, which you've (rightly) removed, but that's why I suggested paying HP, or maybe HD; you used Reckless Attack, which is in the same vein. As long as it's not both tougher and deadlier than a Fighter, you're fine. (Though I don't have the wherewithal for that calculation.)

This is something that I really don't want to work with. Self-damaging abilities are incredibly difficult to balance properly, and honestly, not worth the effort. (...)

Granted.

 

[Weathercock]

I don't have much problem with the damage you calculated, myself. It's a nice bonus, but not overwhelming. To me it beats the alternative, which is stronger negative synergy with several options.

Agreed, I like the functionality quite a bit more, and the extra numbers are (reasonable) icing on the cake.

I'll amend something I said: a Polearm Master should have better average damage than someone without it, when using a polearm. I was bringing it up because you said PBH Frenzy can be mostly replaced with PM, and I don't see that your new feature fixes that, especially when it becomes unconditional later on.

I'll just note my own perspective, which is that anyone who uses a polearm should be benefitting from Polearm Master, since they paid a big price for that feat. This makes PM "mandatory" for a damage-optimized polearm build, but I'm fine with that. In 3.5 it might be a problem if one feat was hands-down mandatory for an optimized build, but that's a feature of 5e's system. PM is the designated feat for being the best with polearms, GWM is the designated feat for being the best with two-handers, etc. If your subclass did make PM superfluous (which the PHB zerker nearly does, to be fair), I think that would be a problem.

The problem with Polearm Mastery is that it plays so well with other feats like GWM and Sentinel. It doesn't just make PM mandatory for damage-optimized polearm builds, it makes it mandatory for any frontline build that wants to be damage optimized, so much so that it leaves very little value in the other great weapons (it wouldn't be such a big issue if other great weapons got feats that gave them something to differentiate them and reflect their own unique qualities, but they don't, so polearms are just better). Each point in PM alone would make it extremely potent in its own right, but both together tends to get on the side of ridiculous.
From a conceptual perspective, it kind of sucks that even the most brutal and bloodthirsty of adventurers is still better off putting away their greataxe or greatsword and reckless charge, opting instead to stand off and poke away at a distance.

One nice thing that I do like about the old Berserker is that its utilization of the bonus action pushes the archetype away from the dominance over every other archetype for every other frontliner that polearm mastery has. I feel that the ability to make AoO on enemies approaching your range, in addition to the increased melee range in general, are still solid reasons to consider taking a polearm/polearm mastery, even with the overlap. It's just one archetype where it isn't automatically the best option. For that reason, I do think that making optimized, economical use of the bonus action would be important for this archetype.

Granted, that bonus action utilization doesn't necessarily have to be one more dose of "I hit the guy (and this is where I definitely get where you're coming from with the PM overlap)," but the PHB itself lends precious little to work with for the Berserker for inspiration on that front. Something with more nuance would be nice, but then comes the issue of the numbers game, which I feel is at a good place right now, and wouldn't want to disturb too much. With that in mind, I'm at a bit of a loss with how to continue beyond that.

The overlap with TWF is definitely a problem, but TWF itself is just one big problem, as things currently are, and should be completely rethought from the ground up.

The berserker should be the best at damage, I think. The PHB balances this by making it all Rage-only and using exhaustion, which you've (rightly) removed, but that's why I suggested paying HP, or maybe HD; you used Reckless Attack, which is in the same vein. As long as it's not both tougher and deadlier than a Fighter, you're fine. (Though I don't have the wherewithal for that calculation.)

It's difficult to calculate for Fighter, since it relies more on activation-based abilities for its damage, while Barbarian tends to be pretty hands free. Generally speaking, however, a Fighter that makes use of its action surges and archetype features should have little issue easily eclipsing my Berserker variant's damage output on earlier turns or shorter fights (~3 turns), with my Better Berserker catching up to a lower but more comparable level in longer encounters (Battlemaster might come up a bit lower, depending on how it decides to use its Maneuvers, while Champion and Eldritch Knight end up with complete blowouts).

 

[the Jester]

At this point, it's pretty commonly accepted that the Barbarian's Berserker archetype is horribly underpowered, and often even considered a trap.

It is? By whom?

I haven't found that to be true. In fact, I think the berserker is one of the most awesomely effective combat machines in the game.

The biggest part of this comes from a general lack of features in addition to Frenzy being entirely unusable.

Well, I've found that pc berserkers are more than willing to suck up a level of exhaustion or two, sometimes more when the chips are down. And the frenzy shouldn't be used every time they rage; if it was intended to be, it would simply supplement/replace rage.

It doesn't help that most of the archetype's offensive value can be replicated with the Polearm Mastery feat.

Most barbarians do more than 1d4 with that bonus action attack. Polearm masters do 1d4. (Plus Str bonus, of course, but that's a wash.)

The main problem with Frenzy at level 3 is that it raises the Berserker's damage cap to ludicrous levels. By replacing the old Frenzy with Bloodlust, we get a powerful archetype feature that still manages to keep the Berserker's potential damage output at reasonable levels. And without the need for exhaustion to keep the ability in check at lower levels, it now scales far better, allowing it to compete with Polearm Mastery in value.

I see what you're getting at here. I guess if you find the Frenzy damage boost to be overwhelming, this is a good fix. Personally, I like the fact that barbarians do lots and lots of damage and evaluate classes on a more rounded basis than just damage.

I also really think you're overvaluing a bonus action attack for 1d4 damage when compared to a 2d6 or 1d12 hit with a maul or greataxe.