Weapon Group Profs - Races Classes and Regions

[Nyaricus]

Weapon Groups were first put down in a WotC d20 source in Unearthed Arcana, but which I personally became familiar with through the computer game Diablo II: Lord of Destruction. This is an optional system, and different than it's incantations in any of the above references - it's my way of doing things that I proudly present to you ENnies. This has gone through quite a few major and minor revisons, and due to the crash much of the feedback here on the boards were lost; however I did happen to keep an updated version on my computer and was easily able to re-post it.

In any case, this is one of my core house rules I am implimenting in all my campaigns and I hope you enjoy it. Just ask if anyhting needs clarifying


Weapon Groups

• Basic Weapons: Dagger, Sickle, Quarterstaff, Sling, Club
• Armour Weapons: Gauntlet, Spiked Gauntlet, Light Shield, Heavy Shield
• Axes: Throwing Axe, Handaxe, Battleaxe, Greataxe, Dwarven Waraxe (2H use)[E], Orc Double Axe [E], Dwarven Urgrosh [E]
• Bows: Shortbow, Longbow
• Clubs and Maces: Light Mace, Heavy Mace, Club, Morningstar, Quarterstaff, Sap, Greatclub
• Crossbows: Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Hand Crossbow, Heavy Repeating Crossbow [E], Light Repeating Crossbow [E]
• Entangling Weapons: Whip [E], Bolas [E], Net [E] [all weapons are Exotic in this group, thus you must use two Proficiency slots to gain Proficiency in this group]
• Flails and Chains: Flail, Heavy Flail, Spiked Chain [E], Dire Flail [E]
• Hammers: Light Hammer, Warhammer, Gnome Hooked Hammer [E], Dwarven Battlehammer[E]
• Heavy Blades: Longsword, Scimitar, Falchion, Greatsword, Bastard Sword (2H use)[E], Two-Bladed Sword [E]
• Light Blades: Dagger, Punching Dagger, Sickle, Kukri, Shortsword, Rapier
• Picks: Light Pick, Heavy Pick, Gnome Hooked Hammer [E]
• Polearms: Glaive, Guisarme, Halberd, Ranseur, Scythe
• Spears: Shortspear, Spear, Longspear, Trident, Lance, Dwarven Urgrosh [E] [Throwing Spear Proficiency, can throw all but Longspear, Lance and Urgrosh]
• Throwing Spears: Dart, Javelin, Shortspear
• Monk Weapons: Kama, Nunchaku, Sai, Siangham, Shuriken

Class Proficiencies
Good BAB classes all get Basic Weapons and any other 3 Weapon Groups (except Fighters, they get 4)
Average BAB classes all get Basic Weapons and any other 2, with the following exceptions:

• Bard - since these guys are supposed to be jacks-of-all-trades, why give them restrictions here? Let 'em choose what they will; personally, I think that that's a great idea!
• Cleric - Clerics must devote one Weapon Group Proficiency to the one that includes his deities Favoured Weapon; if they choose the War Domain, they get it for free and may choose their other Proficiencies as normal.
• Druid - Druids no longer are restricted to Druid or Spear Weapon Groups. They may now choose from Bows, Clubs and Maces, Entangling Weapons, Spears and Throwing Spear Weapon Groups. However this does mean that the Scimitar is a restricted weapon [it was a poor inclusion anyway]. Heavy and Light Maces, which are traditionally composed of metal, are restricted as well.
• Monk - the Monk needs a more refined list. Going through it, I think that Axes, Bows, Clubs and Maces, Flails and Chains, Hammers, Heavy Blades, Picks, Polearms and Armour Weapons should probably be banned outright, for flavour reasons if not anything else. That leaves us with Crossbows, Entangling Weapons, Light Blades, Spears, Throwing Spears and Monk Weapons to choose out of. Sound okay?
• Rogue - This one is easier to list the ones he is allowed. Bows, Clubs and Maces, Crossbows, Entangling Weapons, Light Blades and Throwing Spears are all really good choices for a Rogue. Once you start getting into the other weapon groups, you start getting into different archetypes, IMHO

Poor BAB classes get Basic Weapons and any other 1 (Wizard get basic weapons or crossbows, Sorcerers get crossbows or spears)

• Sorcerer - I could see sorcerers choosing their weapons from the following groups - Spears, Throwing Spears and Crossbows. Another *might* be clubs and maces. Comments?
• Wizard - Wizard get basic weapons and crossbows.
• Commoner - Commoners choose one weapon from the Basic Weapon Group to be Proficiencies in.

Also, any character may start out with Exotic Weapon Proficiencies, but that is described later.

Multiclassing
For multiclassing, take their base number of Proficiencies (excluding basic weapons) and subtract one from it. This number lowers by one for every level you take in a different class. That is how many bonus Proficiencies you gain from multiclassing.
For Example, a human barbarian (Basic Weapons and any other three) wants to learn some more formal fighting techniques, and takes a level or two in fighter. He gains 3 more Proficiencies (4 minus 1), and may choose them as he wishes. Then, he becomes entranced by the skills of a bard, and decides to take a few levels in Bard. now, if this were his second class, he would gain 1 bonus Proficiency (2 basic, minus one for being dual-classed), but since it is his third, he gains none (the two normal, -2 for his two other classes).
The XP penalty of the multi-classing generally discourages it anyway, but you don't gain any further benefits with Weapon Proficiencies either. PrC's usually don't give any bonus Proficiencies If they do, it should be no more than two, no matter what their BAB. Remember: Always ask your DM.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Also, the Exotic Weapon Proficiency is still in use but is only used for weapons that require special training to use (and it covers Double and 'standard' exotic weapons). You MAY take this feat with your normal class Proficiencies (meaning a fighter could take Axes, Bows, Heavy Blades and Exotic Heavy Blades at first level). You must have a BAB of +1 or higher to gain Proficiency in Exotic Weapons.

As for Exotic Double Weapons, you must be Proficient in both "heads" of the exotic double weapon which you wish to use. When you have met these prerequisite's, you need only take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in ONE of the Weapon Groups applicable to the weapon which you wish to be Proficient in.

Example 1: say you have a character who wishes to use a Two-Bladed Sword. You must be Proficient in Heavy Blades and have a BAB of +1. You use one of your Proficiency slots in Exotic Blades and become Proficient in the Two-Bladed Sword (as well the Bastard Sword)

Example 2: say you have a character that wants to use a Dwarven Urgrosh. The two main "weapon parts" for this double weapon are an axe-head and a spear-head. Thus this character must have Proficiency. in both Spear Group weapons and Axe Group weapons as a prerequisite for this weapon. When this character takes the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, he must choose either the Spears or the Axes to be affected by it (meaning, he takes either "Exotic Axes" Proficiency, or "Exotic Spears" Proficiency) then, once he has chosen either Axes or Spears, he gains Proficiency in all Exotic Spears (if he chose Spears) or Axes (if he chose Axes). Either way, he now has met the requirements to use the Urgrosh.

Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization
In regards to Weapon Focus, you chose a group of weapons, and gain all the benefits to all the weapons in that group. If you can hit esp. well with a greatsword, a longsword is not that far off. In regards to double weapons that have two different weapons (like the Urgrosh) you must take Weapon Focus with each applicable weapon group (with the Urgrosh, you must take Weapon Focus(Axes) to gain the +1 to hit with the axes head, and the Weapon Focus (Spears) to get +1 to hit with the spear head). Same goes for Weapon Specialization, etc.

Racial Proficiencies

• Dwarves get Exotic Axes Proficiency or Exotic Hammer Proficiency What this means is that if they have the option to take the Axe Weapon Group, they get, for free, Proficiency in Exotic Axes as well.
• Elves get the Bow or Light Blades Weapon Group Proficiency for free. Players choice.
• Gnomes get either Exotic Picks or Exotic Hammers Proficiency for free. One or the other, not both.
• Halfings get +1 to hit with all thrown/”projectile” weapons.
• Drow Elves gain Light Blades or Crossbows (they favour hand crossbows, rapiers and shortswords).
• Duegar Dwarves don't gain the bonus Exotic Axes Proficiency

Regional Proficiencies
ROUGH DRAFT
as for Regional Proficiencies here is how i do it. Now, as i count it, there are 15 Weapon Groups, and Basic Weapons (which every class gets). Fighters gain 4 Weapon Groups with their class features, so what i would do is for every Region, have about 5, 6 or 7 (7 being the maximum) Weapon Group Proficiencies available.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think your system is fine. It's similar to UA's system which we use and like.

The only part which I don't agree with is new proficiencies from multiclassing. I think it's a bit too much. You have a limit on 3 base classes, which helps, but a Paladin/Ranger/Barbarian has 7 groups, and I don't think it should have more than a singleclass Fighter. I don't think extra proficiencies should be a benefit of having multiple "occupations".

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Looks good! Try this for a simpler multiclassing rule: if you have more than one class, overlap the weapon groups instead of stacking them.

ex:

1) A level 3 Fighter picks up a level of Barbarian.. the Fighter has 4 weapon groups and the Barbarian has 3, so this character gains no extra weapon groups.

2) A level 5 Cleric picks up a level of Barbarian.. he gains one new weapon group, since the Barbarian starts with 3 and the Cleric only has 2. The Cleric then takes a level of Fighter and gains a 4th weapon group.

 

[comrade raoul]

I think it's actually probably best to use the standard rules for determining weapon proficiencies from classes, but to apply feats like Weapon Focus or Exotic Weapon Proficiency to groups.

 

[Nyaricus]

The only part which I don't agree with is new proficiencies from multiclassing. I think it's a bit too much. You have a limit on 3 base classes, which helps, but a Paladin/Ranger/Barbarian has 7 groups, and I don't think it should have more than a singleclass Fighter. I don't think extra proficiencies should be a benefit of having multiple "occupations".

Looks good! Try this for a simpler multiclassing rule: if you have more than one class, overlap the weapon groups instead of stacking them.

hmmm, good points all around. While it is true tha if you were to have a pally/ranger/barb youd have 6 weapon groups (plus basic weapons > what you said, but clarifyed) i honestly dont think thats much of a balance issue. how many people are going to take multiple weapons focuses/specs? usually, IMCs, its just their primary weapon (although if my players werent such noobs [all good guys though] they would grab it for their secondary weapon too ) Besides - if, in theory, one were to use the multiclassing rules suggested by me, the benefits of picking up more than three classes for the profs would begin to drop signifigantly. Combined with multi-classing EXP penalties, i dont think this poses much of a problem

Ulorian, i do like your idea of "stacking" in regards to multiclassing but i think for my new campaign (an Evil one set in FRCS ) i will keep the multiclassing as desribed in the main entry, and keep your suggestion as a side note in my files.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I'll keep your weapon groups breakdown in my files too.

That multiclass suggestion comes from a 1E campaign I was running in the early 80s. I created weapon groups because it seemed silly that Fighters would be completely inept with most weapons (aside from the four or whatever it was they were proficient with back in 1E). With the release of the 1E Unearthed Arcana and its weapon specialisation rules, I liked my weapon groups even more: a Fighter who has double weapon specialisation in longsword (+3/+3) picks up a broadsword and suddenly has a penalty to hit? The way weapon proficiencies work has always been a big WTF for me.

 

[Nyaricus]

The way weapon proficiencies work has always been a big WTF for me.

no kidding! thats why, when playing my once fav. class in diablo 2 (the barbarian) i was amazed by the idea of the weapon groups in that game, and the fact that is you switched from a scimitar to a broadsword, youd still gain the same bonuses you put your skill points (feats-equivalent in D2 jargon) to.

So, thast why i created this proficientcy system > it made more sense then having the standard system. besides, who ever said that it was more difficult to learn how to use a warhammer as opposed to a club? *i am not pointing my fingers at R&D, promise*

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

In regards to racial profs, heres how i do it for the standard D&D races (i have my own world specific elves, etc) Dwarves gain Exotic Axe Prof instead of their weapon familiarity (Basically, a fairly standard melee-based Dwarf would take the Axe Weapon Group, and would then have the Exotic Axes feat apply. If they dont take the axe wepaon group, then they would obviously gain no benefit from the Exotics Axes Prof. Elves gain the Weapon group of Bows as a bonus Prof (as a spellcaster this will help with profs, and as a melee character, they can focus on melee weapons) instead os their normal automatic profs. Gnomes gain Exotic Hammers as a bonus prof, instead of their normal Weapon Familiarity. Halflings gain a +1 to hit with any weapon that is thrown and slings (being the only missile weapon that gains a +1 to hit) this includes (for example, among many others) Shurikens from the Monk Weapons Group, all Throwing Spears, throwing axes, hammers and clubs, etc etc. **NOTE: adding in some other standard races here: Drow Elves gain Light Blades or Crossbows (they favour hand crossbows, rapiers and shortswords). Duegar Dwarves dont gain the bonus Exotic Axes prof. All other subraces have the standard profs

Shouldn't the elves get either the heavy blades or light blades choice as well? They do in the UA rules. Overall, looks nice. I like some of the common sense changes you made from UA. Since when isn't sling a "basic" weapon? And they did weird things like make kukris, normally a martial weapon, into an "exotic light blade". Your system seems to be much more logical. However, i also think it should work as an overlap for multiclassing. If someone really wanted that much weapon variety, drunken master is always available.

 

[Thondor]

I created weapon groups because it seemed silly that Fighters would be completely inept with most weapons (aside from the four or whatever it was they were proficient with back in 1E). With the release of the 1E Unearthed Arcana and its weapon specialisation rules, I liked my weapon groups even more: a Fighter who has double weapon specialisation in longsword (+3/+3) picks up a broadsword and suddenly has a penalty to hit? The way weapon proficiencies work has always been a big WTF for me.

Forgive me for being the one who points out that it actually does make sense, in the real world. If i learn all kinds of techniques for using a scimitar wich has certain techniques associated with it, a certain curvature of the blade wich allows certain blows that a straight blade doesn't as well as being used to the weight - how hard to swing, how easily it's manuvered. Then suddenly switch to a broadsword that I've held maybe once in my life I really won't know what I'm doing. Heck switching from one scimitar to another would take some getting used to (small weight,balance,length,grip differences) Especially when you've specialised in that one weapon and it's basicly the only weapon you use.

There are bonuses for specalizing in one weapon but that's the important point you sacrifice diversity for skill with one weapon. Which is why I'm against applying weapon focus and weapon specialization to an entire weapon group. And while I understand those who think the penalties were once to high I disagree with them, the weapon your character just swipe up of the floor is unfamiliar to you, you have rarely if ever used it, thus you should be penalised. And while you are a good all around warrior your BAB accounts for that.

While I don't expect penalization to those who chose weapon group: heavy blades and then only ever have their character used a scimitar and then are forced to dive for that longsword - they shouldn't get the benefit of feats for a weapon they never use (and in my opinion should probably have an additional -1 or -2 judgement call)
Moreover if there diving for a quaterstaff that they have never used ( and they don't have the proficiency) they should get at least the standard -4 which is not clearly stated.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Forgive me for being the one who points out that it actually does make sense, in the real world.

In your opinion. Sure, there are a few minor differences in advanced technique between a scimitar and a longsword, to use your example. The basic techniques are the same though. If I know how to wield a longsword extremely well in the real world, then pick up a scimitar, I won't be a complete rookie with it - it's plainly ridiculous to state otherwise.

You do have a point, though, in that if weapon focus/specialisation reflects knowledge of advanced techniques, specialisation in the longsword wouldn't completely transfer over to the scimitar. I think that the weapon group solution, though not perfect, mirrors reality more closely than the existing alternative.

Also, the example you chose is extreme. What about shortbows and composite shortbows? Does it really make sense for these to be separate weapon proficiencies?