D&D 5E Warlocks and high level play
- Thread starter EroGaki
- Start date
Yes and the higher levels get the 14th level patron ability, some nice at-will spell-like abilities in the invocations, and arcanum.
Once you get 14th for the patron ability you want 15th for at-will arcane eye and 8th aracanum. Once you get 15th level you want 16th for a feat / ASI, and additional invocation. Once you have 16th level you want 17th level for the 9th-level arcanum and 4 spell slots. Then you are in splash territory, but another invocation, feat / ASI, and the capstone are still worth a fair bit.
Once you get 14th for the patron ability you want 15th for at-will arcane eye and 8th aracanum. Once you get 15th level you want 16th for a feat / ASI, and additional invocation. Once you have 16th level you want 17th level for the 9th-level arcanum and 4 spell slots. Then you are in splash territory, but another invocation, feat / ASI, and the capstone are still worth a fair bit.
They get a massive power bump at 11th level. They suddenly get 3 slots per short rest and a daily 6th.
If you compare a warlock to another caster, they get (for the most part) just as many 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells (excluding the 6th and 7th slot at 19-20), and it's only 5th level slots and below where there is a difference. A warlock get's fewer slots but their slots are far more top-heavy.
Compare an 11th level warlock to an 11th wizard.
Warlock: 3 x 5th level slots (6 with 1 short rest, 9 with the recommended two)
Wizard: 4 3 3 3 2 for a total of 15 slots.
Even with just one short rest in a day, I'd argue that 6 x 5th level slots is comparable to, if not preferable to 2 x 5th and a bunch of lower level slots, especially when you take into account the warlocks invocations which tend to take up the utility role that low-level slots are used for. With 2 short rests a day, I'd argue the 9 x 5th level slots is far more preferable than the wizard slots.
When a warlock reaches 17, things get even more interesting:
Warlock: 4 x 5th level slots, 8 with one short rest, 12 with two short rests.
Wizard: 4 3 3 3 2 for 15 slots (same as before)
Now we can definitely see that a warlock with 2 short rests gets 12 x 5th level slots a day compare to a wizards 2 x 5th level slots and associated lower level spells.
I'm not arguing that a warlock is a better caster than a wizard, I'm saying they each have their benefits. A wizard is far more flexible in his options and can burn through all their slots in a single combat, over an extended adventuring day though, a warlock has far more staying power as a caster.
Take into account a warlocks strong cantrips and and access to other at-will utilities, and potent class abilities and I think they make fine pure-casters.
I'm currently playing a Warlock (Fiend, Pact of the Blade) 12/Fighter (Battlemaster) 3 and find I can function perfect well in the caster role despite being multi-classed.
If you compare a warlock to another caster, they get (for the most part) just as many 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells (excluding the 6th and 7th slot at 19-20), and it's only 5th level slots and below where there is a difference. A warlock get's fewer slots but their slots are far more top-heavy.
Compare an 11th level warlock to an 11th wizard.
Warlock: 3 x 5th level slots (6 with 1 short rest, 9 with the recommended two)
Wizard: 4 3 3 3 2 for a total of 15 slots.
Even with just one short rest in a day, I'd argue that 6 x 5th level slots is comparable to, if not preferable to 2 x 5th and a bunch of lower level slots, especially when you take into account the warlocks invocations which tend to take up the utility role that low-level slots are used for. With 2 short rests a day, I'd argue the 9 x 5th level slots is far more preferable than the wizard slots.
When a warlock reaches 17, things get even more interesting:
Warlock: 4 x 5th level slots, 8 with one short rest, 12 with two short rests.
Wizard: 4 3 3 3 2 for 15 slots (same as before)
Now we can definitely see that a warlock with 2 short rests gets 12 x 5th level slots a day compare to a wizards 2 x 5th level slots and associated lower level spells.
I'm not arguing that a warlock is a better caster than a wizard, I'm saying they each have their benefits. A wizard is far more flexible in his options and can burn through all their slots in a single combat, over an extended adventuring day though, a warlock has far more staying power as a caster.
Take into account a warlocks strong cantrips and and access to other at-will utilities, and potent class abilities and I think they make fine pure-casters.
I'm currently playing a Warlock (Fiend, Pact of the Blade) 12/Fighter (Battlemaster) 3 and find I can function perfect well in the caster role despite being multi-classed.
JackOfAllTirades
Explorer
I haven't got to 11th level yet, but the Mystic Arcanum class feature worries me. How useful is a 1/day spell that can't ever be changed?
(I'm running a Tiefling BladeLock, currently 8th level, and it's going quiet well.)
(I'm running a Tiefling BladeLock, currently 8th level, and it's going quiet well.)
Well, don't forget that for the most part all casters only really get their high level slots 1/day. Though definitely not being able to change the spell is a drawback. The trick is to choose something that you'll usually want to use. Spells like Foresight, Forcecage, Dominate Monster, Mass Suggestion and True Polymorph are things you can always find a use for.
Almost as good as the 1 spell slot per day and 1 spell known of levels 6-9 a typical sorcerer knows, and much better than not having any such high level spells. ;-)
The options could be true polymorph, dominate monster, forcecage, and mass suggestion so pretty good options. If you are on a melee build then possibly foresight, demiplane, forcecage, and conjure fey. Generally, no one has a lot of high level spells, and typically it's better to use a high level spell than it is to use a lower level spell in a higher level slot. The 14th level patron ability is the equivalent of an additional high level spell as well. They definitely aren't struggling.
I've been running a solo campaign for my brother, started him out at 12th level with a Warlock, a more advanced version of his character in another campaign we run with some other friends. So far, I've had no problem with the power levels, and he seems to be quite versatile. Granted, it's a solo campaign so I can tailor the adventures to his limitations, but as a DM I haven't found his toon to have problems with staying power or flexibility. Warlocks seem just fine post 11th to us.
Zaruthustran
The tingling means it’s working!
I think even a single level in a primary-casting class is a huge, huge boost for the Warlock.
For example, Bard. Cha-based class. A one-level dip adds 2 cantrips and 2 1st level spell slots. And, crucially, 4 spells known. Bard has some TERRIFIC spells for a Warlock. Like Healing Word, Sleep, Dissonant Whispers, Bane, Charm Person, and Unseen Servant. The level 1 slots from Bard can be used for one of the Warlock's good-but-not-worth-a-high-level-slot 1st level spells, or to cast any of the 4 bard spells. And those 4 bard spells can be very powerful when cast using one of the warlock's max-level slots. Sleep cast with a 5th level slot is an incredibly powerful spell. 13d8 vs the target's current hitpoints; you roll higher, target goes night-night for one minute--with no save. It's a killer closer for round 2.
Anyway. High-level Warlock seems just fine. But it's way, way better with a single level dip.
For example, Bard. Cha-based class. A one-level dip adds 2 cantrips and 2 1st level spell slots. And, crucially, 4 spells known. Bard has some TERRIFIC spells for a Warlock. Like Healing Word, Sleep, Dissonant Whispers, Bane, Charm Person, and Unseen Servant. The level 1 slots from Bard can be used for one of the Warlock's good-but-not-worth-a-high-level-slot 1st level spells, or to cast any of the 4 bard spells. And those 4 bard spells can be very powerful when cast using one of the warlock's max-level slots. Sleep cast with a 5th level slot is an incredibly powerful spell. 13d8 vs the target's current hitpoints; you roll higher, target goes night-night for one minute--with no save. It's a killer closer for round 2.
Anyway. High-level Warlock seems just fine. But it's way, way better with a single level dip.
I think I've always hesitated rolling up a warlock because of the limited spell slots. Yes, they regain them on a short rest, but I don't like relying on the DM's good graces for the necessary time; my DM in particular is fond of the "race against time" adventure,, where the clock is ticking and we have to rush from one nightmare to the next.
Playing a warlock would feel like having one elixir in a Final Fantasy game; I never used it, because I feared wasting it when it on something minor, only to have a boss show up. I can see myself never casting anything but cantrips, because I'd be afraid of using my only two slots, and then have something bigger show up before the party could rest.
Playing a warlock would feel like having one elixir in a Final Fantasy game; I never used it, because I feared wasting it when it on something minor, only to have a boss show up. I can see myself never casting anything but cantrips, because I'd be afraid of using my only two slots, and then have something bigger show up before the party could rest.
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