D&D 5E Warcaster, polearm master and learning to love the optimizing?

[redrick]

Our players just reached level 6 and were announcing their level up decisions over the forum. Our F2/Warlock4 (newly minted 4), announced that he would be taking the War Caster feat. He explained that, combined with the polearm mastery feat, this allows him to cast spells as an opportunity attack against any creature that steps within 10' of him.

My immediate reaction to this was, "whoa now, that feels like a bit of a loophole. Would you do me a favor and give me an in-world, common sense reason why your polearm mastery would allow you to cast spells at creatures as they come within 10 feet of you?"

Disclosure at this point. I'm not an optimizer. I don't really get optimizing the way I don't really get mint-chocolate chip ice cream. My overall tendencies probably lean more towards banning multiclassing and banning feats, but I also appreciate that my tastes are not everyone's tastes, so I decided to leave everything in the PHB on the table. And the player running the F2/Wrlk4 is a valued member of our group and definitely somebody who loves optimizing. I mean, that dude could spend our whole session talking about the interactions of different feats, different actions, different spells, different class abilities. He also knows the text of the PHB front-to-back, and frequently steps in as a public defender on behalf of my poor monsters. He's good spirited about it, and, as somebody who doesn't have a whole lot of time to pore over the rulebooks, I'm happy to have a legal consultant in the group.

So our valued player responds, along the lines of paraphrasing the text of the two feats, reminding me that he spent two feats to get that combination, making a minimal narrative justification for the ability, and then finally, saying, "I built my character around this concept." That last line really put my hackles up.

So, here are my questions.

First of all, warcaster + polearm mastery loophole: is it actually gonna throw a lot of cheese on the table? Intentions or not, where does this stand in the whole Rules as Fun department?

But more importantly, what are some advices for a non-optimizer DM who wants to have a fun time in a group with an optimizer player? (Let me repeat, this player really is, in most respects, a perfectly delightful gentleman and I'm very happy to have him in my group.)

(My actual response elaborated on the player's narrative justification and then said, "So I'll allow it," but then also stated that, in the future, if he has any feat or feature combinations coming up in the future, he should please discuss them with me well in advance, so we can all be on the same page.)

Sorry, this is a really incoherent post.

 

[DaveDash]

Are the other players in the same boat as him? You might want to ask him to tone it down because you may find it difficult to challenge this one player, and other players may end up feeling a bit useless as a result. Also a lot of the default monster content is not designed with optimisers in mind, so be prepared to do a little bit more work as a DM if you allow optimisation at your table. The baseline is more roleplay rather than rollplay.

Now having said that, I don't think that combination is particularly powerful. He is creating a dependency on melee, which later on, will come to bite him. He will be pretty powerful when the circumstances are right, but pretty meh a lot of the other times. Just have 20 Orcs shoot at him with bows and he might think twice about building a character optimised to do one little thing very well.
Also this edition is all about party optimisation instead of character optimisation, so you might want to chat to him about that. What's he doing that's making the party more optimal? Monsters might just start ignoring him and dropping the weaker party members.

Multi-classing isn't really that bad in this edition, there's usually a trade off. The feats you really need to watch out for are Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert.

Edited for clarity.

 

[pemerton]

Sorry, this is a really incoherent post.

Not at all!

what are some advices for a non-optimizer DM who wants to have a fun time in a group with an optimizer player?

I am probably a bit of an optimiser by your standards, but I'm not as hardcore as some of my players. But I also have players in my group who aren't so much into optimising, or who deliberately look for quirky options rather than optimised ones.

I can't tell you if the combo is broken or not. (Does it let him use cantrips as OAs? That seems strong, because cantrips power-up with level whereas OAs don't. But even if it's strong, I can't judge if it's broken.)

But if others who reply tell you it's not broken, then my advice would be to roll with it. One of the optimisers in my 4e group has a polearm fighter who makes enemies suck an OA to approach him and stops them in their tracks if the OA hits; and can then fall back on his own turn and still hit them because he has a feature that gives him improved reach. It means that mooks can't close with him unless he lets them. My workaround is to use enough opponents with mobility (from flight, terrain etc) to be able to close on the other PCs without having to go past him; and if that doesn't work for whatever reason (eg the PCs create a bottleneck) then he gets to do his thing.

The main thing I would watch out for is that his optimisation doesn't crowd out or overshadow other players. This is most in danger of happening if there is another PC whose schtick is being effective in melee.

 

[SirAntoine]

It's grossly over-powered. I'd disallow it, even if I said they could use anything in the PHB. You want to make an exception in this case.

 

[Celtavian]

Powerful ability with Eldritch Blast. Yes, cantrips count as spells and can be used as an AoO. So this guy gets his regular Polearm attacks with bonus action attack and a Eldritch Blast with two beams for 1d10+Cha each beam (I'm assuming he took the Eldritch Blast Invocation that gives Cha bonus to damage for each hit). So at level 6, he gets one regular polearm attack, one bonus action 1d4+Str attack, and a reaction Eldritch Blast for two beams at 1d10+4. 1d10+4 plus 1d4+4 plus 2d10+8 for potential of 34 points of damage a round in melee at level 6. Pretty nasty and only going to get nastier as he rises in level.

At the end of the day he'll end up with three attacks on his action, one bonus action attack, and three to four Eldritch Blast attacks for 1d10 plus ability modifier with his reaction. That's a pretty big damage potential.

If you think you can handle it without ruining the other players' fun, then let him keep it. If you don't, then maybe you modify. Maybe let him get some levels and decide what you think based on play. I always like to test things to see how they turn out in play than to assume worst case scenario based on theory.

He won't be weak ranged, just weaker than when in melee. He can still use Eldritch Blast ranged.

One thing to always remember...he gets Disadvantage on attack rolls anytime he uses a ranged attack within 5 feet of an opponent. If someone is on top of him within 5 feet and he tries to use Eldritch Blast, he gets Disadvantage on every beam attack roll. Make sure you use that rule to your advantage. If he starts using Shocking Grasp, it will do far less damage than Eldritch Blast.

There are no 5 foot steps in this game. So there's no way to leave ranged without provoking an AoO unless he picks up a feat for that later.

 

[PnPgamer]

How is it overpowered? He uses a spell slot and has taken 2 feats?

Although he should have asked you first on the combination, not in last minute.

 

[Paraxis]

Well the trick is going to be not to provoke many AoO from that character, use more monsters with reach that don't have to close (so 15' I guess), more ranged attackers, more spell casters, stuff like that. Once the first person gets eldritch blasted for even approaching him the others will be shy to do it, unless they swarm him remember only 1 reaction, so the first guy takes one for the team and the others just pounce.

If it becomes an issue and you want to back peddle on it show him this http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/16/polearm-caster/ Mike Mearls saying it shouldn't work. Now of course that is a a rules as intended answer, the combo is perfectly OK by the rules as written currently.

Most of my players are optimizers, the way I deal with it is harder encounters and use higher hit point amounts for the enemies.

Good gaming.

 

[pemerton]

On the cantrips issue - a modification that might be acceptable would be to have a cantrip used in an OA always deal only 1st level damage. That way cantrip-powered OAs don't outstrip weapon OAs.

 

[DaveDash]

Powerful ability with Eldritch Blast. Yes, cantrips count as spells and can be used as an AoO. So this guy gets his regular Polearm attacks with bonus action attack and a Eldritch Blast with two beams for 1d10+Cha each beam (I'm assuming he took the Eldritch Blast Invocation that gives Cha bonus to damage for each hit). So at level 6, he gets one regular polearm attack, one bonus action 1d4+Str attack, and a reaction Eldritch Blast for two beams at 1d10+4. 1d10+4 plus 1d4+4 plus 2d10+8 for potential of 34 points of damage a round in melee at level 6. Pretty nasty and only going to get nastier as he rises in level.

At the end of the day he'll end up with three attacks on his action, one bonus action attack, and three to four Eldritch Blast attacks for 1d10 plus ability modifier with his reaction. That's a pretty big damage potential.

If you think you can handle it without ruining the other players' fun, then let him keep it. If you don't, then maybe you modify. Maybe let him get some levels and decide what you think based on play. I always like to test things to see how they turn out in play than to assume worst case scenario based on theory.

He won't be weak ranged, just weaker than when in melee. He can still use Eldritch Blast ranged.

One thing to always remember...he gets Disadvantage on attack rolls anytime he uses a ranged attack within 5 feet of an opponent. If someone is on top of him within 5 feet and he tries to use Eldritch Blast, he gets Disadvantage on every beam attack roll. Make sure you use that rule to your advantage. If he starts using Shocking Grasp, it will do far less damage than Eldritch Blast.

There are no 5 foot steps in this game. So there's no way to leave ranged without provoking an AoO unless he picks up a feat for that later.

It's really not that powerful. A non MC Paladin or Fighter will still be better in melee than he is.

He's also made a couple of big trade offs to get there. Human (no group dark vision), no ability score boost, and slower level progression.

He will be moderately powerful in tight quarters but fairly average in open spaces, and has paid the price of two feats.

Also he only ever gets one reaction per round, and enemies can still disengage to render those two feats of his nearly worthless.

 

[pemerton]

show him this http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/16/polearm-caster/ Mike Mearls saying it shouldn't work.

That seems to settle it, then!

In which case you might want to let the player re-spec his character.