Wall of Thorns - Overpowered? How to balance...

[moticon]

Hello all,

We have been playing a good bit of Greyhawk, and one of the PC's in our regular group reached a level that allows her to cast "wall of thorns". This has turned out to be a regularly devestating spell for most encounters for the following reasons:

• Any creature/NPC is usually immobilized
• Spell casters must take damage to move and cast spells
• It doesn't provide cover or block line of effect so PC's may target at will
• most enemy creatures/NPC's are not prepared to escape it effectively
• The druid is now putting down 26 5'x10'x10' squares of solid thorns, burying most enemy groups...

We've been discussing this because while it's fun to own everything we meet that is coporeal, it seems like this is taking a lot of fun out of it for everyone, and DM's everywhere are getting frustrated...

What thoughts do you have on balancing/limiting/countering the druid's "wall of thorns"?

 

[rvalle]

This might belong in the rules section...


Where does it say it does not effect LOS? I ruled it did.

Freedom of Movement worked well for getting people out that were stuck inside (the party got hit by one).

rv

 

[moticon]

Freedom of movement is great for PC's (They usually have one at this level), but I've only seen one NPC/monster ever have one..

As to rules section.. you are probably right. If a moderator wants to move this they can. Sorry if this is posted in the wrong area.

pat

 

[Nifft]

I think it's been errata'd into a sensible power level. Take a look at the full text of the most recent revision: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfThorns.htm

A wall of thorns spell creates a barrier of very tough, pliable, tangled brush bearing needle-sharp thorns as long as a human’s finger. Any creature forced into or attempting to move through a wall of thorns takes slashing damage per round of movement equal to 25 minus the creature’s AC. Dexterity and dodge bonuses to AC do not count for this calculation. (Creatures with an Armor Class of 25 or higher, without considering Dexterity and dodge bonuses, take no damage from contact with the wall.)

Many foes will have AC higher than 25.

Cheers, -- N

PS: There's language in the spell's description that it provides a "barrier". Look at what Line of Effect is blocked by ("barriers"). If your DM chose to rule that the Wall does indeed block Line of Effect, he will have some support from the rules.

 

[Nareau]

Here are some old threads discussing it:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=144845
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=19635

When I ran my last campaign, I found Wall of Thorns to be far too powerful. I talked with my players about it, and came up with some good ways to nerf it. I think most of our house rules just made it easier to escape (ie, we gave it a hardness and some HP so you could chop through it). That gave the brutes a much better chance to escape (power attacking for full), but still made it worth preparing most of the time.

Nareau

 

[rvalle]

Freedom of movement is great for PC's (They usually have one at this level), but I've only seen one NPC/monster ever have one..

As to rules section.. you are probably right. If a moderator wants to move this they can. Sorry if this is posted in the wrong area.

pat

Yeah, I'm having the same problem with Sunbeam. You get 4 beams and each one can blind more then 1 creature. And, as far as I can tell, the blindness is Permanent.

Remove Blindness is easy for a party, but what monsters have it? I now have a bunch of perma-blinded Fire Giants waiting for the party to come back and finish them off.


Does the SRD version and the lack of LOS inside help with the Thorns?

rv

 

[moticon]

Here are some old threads discussing it:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=144845
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=19635
Nareau

thanks for the links... look like no one ever really found any serious workarounds for monsters w/o appropriate 2 or 3 counterspells...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Potions of remove blindeness are pretty reasonable treasure for any number of intelligent opponents who are entitled to drinkable treasure--including giants. (And dragons, demons, devils, etc). There are quite a few blinding effects in the game and a way to get rid of them can be important. And at the levels that parties can cast Sunbeam (it's level 7 so you should generally not see it until level 13), the non-intelligent monsters that are high enough CR that it is reasonable to expect them to be a threat are generally advanced and templated enough to have reasonable defenses against sunbeam (the reflex save negates the blindness).

That said, I wonder how you're running sunbeam. As I read it, you cast the spell and nothing happens. The next round you can spend a standard action to conjure a beam. You can repeat it until you run out of beams, but I've always found it to be too slow to be of really frequent use. Sunburst, on the other hand... the huge area of effect can make it difficult to target in indoor situations or skirmish battlefield conditions. It is, however, frequently a battle ender--a scroll of sunburst finished off the final battle of the Siege of Brindol in our Red Hand of Doom game in the first round. And it finished off a nasty ambush in the most recent level 18 game I played.

Yeah, I'm having the same problem with Sunbeam. You get 4 beams and each one can blind more then 1 creature. And, as far as I can tell, the blindness is Permanent.

Remove Blindness is easy for a party, but what monsters have it? I now have a bunch of perma-blinded Fire Giants waiting for the party to come back and finish them off.

 

[frankthedm]

Wall of thorns was way too good. I say change it to

SR: Yes [Thorns form a “bubble” around creature that resists the spell at creation]
Reflex save avoids being trapped inside the wallat creation.
Each 5' square Hardness 5, 30 HP per 5’.

 

[Doug Sundseth]

Since Sunbeam has a duration, it would certainly be a supportable ruling that the blindness lasts only for that duration or until dispelled. I don't see anything in the description that indicates that the blindness is either Permanent or Instantaneous.