D&D 5E Wall of Force / Forcecage -- Once More Into the Breach

[kcStranger]

I posted before asking for feedback about some changes I was considering for these spells, and I wanted to post one more time to solicit feedback on what I settled on. As I said on my previous post, D&D 5e is intentionally designed with some "overpowered" or even "broken" spells, and if you're OK with that, then there obviously isn't any need to nerf/houserule spells. However, Wall of Force and Forcecage have been generally recognized as potentially problematic in that they allow players (or enemies, for that matter) to handily defeat foes much stronger than them. For instance, following a fairly natural ruling, two level-9 PCs (say, a Bard and a Wizard) could fairly easily defeat a lone Death Knight (CR 17) assuming they both had the chance to take a turn. Bard casts Heat Metal, Wizard casts Wall of Force in a hemisphere, both back beyond 60 feet (the max range for the Death Knight's spells), and voila--victory.

The basic problem with Wall of Force and Forcecage is that they have no associated save, allowing enemies to be easily cordoned off. (Wall of Force is probably the most problematic since it is 5th-level, but Forcecage not being a concentration spell is also a major strength.) That said, I was interested in exploring solutions that didn't involve slapping a save on the spell, since the flavor of most magical force spells is "instant effect, no save." (See Magic Missile.) Here's what I came up with.

Wall of Force--two edits:

1. If you position the wall so that it passes through a space occupied by a creature, the spell fails, and your action and the spell slot are wasted. Justification: Prismatic Wall (9th-level) has this restriction, and I see no reason why Wall of Force (5th-level) shouldn't have it as well.
2. A wall of force can be oriented as you choose and can be composed of up to ten 10-by-10-foot panels in any arrangement, as long as they create a flat surface. You may not shape it into a dome or sphere. Justification: Cordoning off powerful enemies with Wall of Force is a very consistent tactic with dome and sphere options. I think that restricting players to a planar wall will encourage creativity (e.g., consideration of terrain when making the wall, possibly using a wall as a shield) as opposed to encouraging them to simply bubble off the most powerful cluster of enemies at the beginning of each encounter. In addition, Prismatic Wall (9th-level) can only be cast as a plane (albeit a larger plane). Finally, Wall of Stone (5th-level) seems much weaker than Wall of Force without this edit. This edit still allows players to use Wall of Force as a no-save wall-off...but they have to be much more creative.

Forcecage--{two edits} one edit:

1. Only 1,000 gp of ruby dust is required, but it is consumed by the spell. Justification: Although Forcecage can be defeated by magical means, it is nevertheless a very powerful spell that allows certain enemies (even adult dragons depending on how you rule things) to be taken out of commission. Because there is no save, it even gets around legendary resistance. So, I'd like players to think twice about the cost of using it. As for the appropriateness of the cost, I'd point out that Heroes' Feast has the same cost.
2. {A forcecage can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell cast at 8th level or higher.} It was pointed out below that the rules for Disintegrate already cover this.

One more edit I'm now considering: A creature with Legendary Resistance can expend one use to break through a Wall of Force or Forcecage. May drop cost of Forcecage to 500 gp if I make that change.

Any feedback would be most appreciated. Thanks!

 

[NotActuallyTim]

Those sound pretty good to me, but I'm biased against both of those spells anyways. I throw heavy objects at anyone who uses them, be they player or DM, until they've been knocked unconscious and can be safely removed from the gaming group before their wickedness spreads.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Disintigrate works vs forcecage as it states it can destroy force effects. It is just extra powerful vs wall of force

 

[kcStranger]

Oh, thanks for pointing that out!

 

[Joshua McOwen]

I know this post is long overdue but should handle most of your concerns about PCs trying to make spells OP.

Do remember that XP is earned for defeating (but not necessarily killing) a foe based on its threat. Therefore, a LV 9 wizard and Bard squaring off agains a death knight would ordinarily garner higher than normal XP for defeating a CR 17 (ad hoc xp), , a GM is well within their right to reduce the XP earned if the PCs reduce the threat level through the use of a "broken spell" . You might award XP for a CR 8 creature instead of the normal CR 17 because the threat simply wasn't there, or even less if there was virtually no threat to their person.

PC inventiveness should be encouraged in some cases, and simply discouraged in others rather than altering the game itself.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Some people can't grasp that spells can be pretty powerful. No one seems to blink at a hasted Paladin GWM doing 40pts three times a turn, every turn. But a powerful wizard that casts one spell per long rest that swings the course of a battle ... BROKEN!

 

[Gadget]

I'm really not seeing the brokenness, but sure...those restrictions don't look too onerous. I would like to point out that shaping the Wall of Force into a dome to protect you and your party from the rampaging dragon seems like a perfectly valid use for the spell that I would hate to loose.

 

[Bringer]

Here are my Houserules for Forcecage.

1. Dispel Magic at 7th level dispels it
2. Teleportation automatically succeeds in escaping
3. Disintegrate automatically destroys it
4. Solid Box version- AC: 20 Hit Points: 200
5. Cage Version- AC:20 Hit Points: 100
6. Force Cage is resistant to nearly all damage types(effectively doubling its Hit Points)
7. Force Cage is immune to certain damage types(Probably just Necrotic)
8. Force Cage is vulnerable to Force damage(Force Damage does double damage)
9. Siege Weapons/Attacks effect Force Cage as if it was a structure(So double damage)

Melee fighters will still struggle against Force Cage, but at the very least it is possible for them to destroy it.

 

[Stalker0]

Some people can't grasp that spells can be pretty powerful. No one seems to blink at a hasted Paladin GWM doing 40pts three times a turn, every turn. But a powerful wizard that casts one spell per long rest that swings the course of a battle ... BROKEN!

A paladin blowing his daily spells, with a buff provided by said wizard...and assuming he hits 3 times.

Vs a wizard that can take out a 300 hp creature automatically with a snap of their fingers.


It's not even close to the same thing.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

A paladin blowing his daily spells, with a buff provided by said wizard...and assuming he hits 3 times.

Vs a wizard that can take out a 300 hp creature automatically with a snap of their fingers.


It's not even close to the same thing.

Depends on the creature, the paladin and the wizard. In any case I've got a fighter/rogue archer that does 60+hp per round, every round, all day long and has action surged 150hp. Just a matter of perspective. Any truly high level threat should be ready for wizards, if not, that's the reason they failed, not a given spell.