Vermin as Animals

[Steinhauser]

I never quite understood the divide between vermin and animals, and why spells and effects that work on animals don't work on vermin.

Vermin are animals, after all. Monstrous vermin are just dire animals. There's no clear-cut evolutionary schism between the two. For example, cephalopods (octopus, squid) are animals in the game. Would other mollusks be animals too? I seem to remember a snail being designated vermin somewhere. Somewhere during the transition from gastropod to cephalopod it went from vermin to animal - why, and when did it happen?

Fish are animals, worms vermin. What about the basal proto-fish (Pikaia, etc.) of the Cambrian?

"Vermin have no Intelligence score." Essentially, they're robots that work on instinct, right? However, I think their mental capacities are being underestimated - they can still feel fear, compulsions, etc. An ant's pheromones are a mind-influencing effect.

Vermin aren't trainable at all, but neither are most fish, reptiles, and amphibians. I see no reason why vermin can't be animal companions, or wild shape choices for that matter. Handle Animal should work on vermin, if not to train them, to at least give the handler some degree of control over them (using pressure points, pheromones, bait (a fly on a fishing pole), etc.).

Ride should work in a similar fashion. (Through selective breeding, I for one believe it would be possible to produce a docile riding spider with even basal trainability.)

Therefore, I felt the vermin type should be revised as a subtype. Current vermin type are changed to animal (vermin). This requires very little bookkeeping - all that changes are Reflex saves to good (which vermin should, by all means, be good at) and skills (they get 3+HD skill points each, which could easily be all spent on Climb for the vast majority).

Vermin Subtype
Animals with the vermin subtype include insects, arachnids, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates.

They possess the following traits:

• Intelligence score of 1. Immunity to charms and morale effects (though still subject to fear).
• Subject to spells and effects that specifically target vermin.
• +5 to the DC of all Handle Animal, Ride, and Wild Empathy checks made to influence vermin.
• Tremorsense out to 60 ft. (This replaces Darkvision and is an ability most poor-sighted vermin actually have)
• Does not acquire feats.

 

[Ilja]

I've always considered them straight animals in my games, but I guess having them as subtypes might be even better.

Also, that means a drow ranger or druid can actually naturally take a spider as a companion.

 

[CAFargo]

Vermin are animals, after all. Monstrous vermin are just dire animals. There's no clear-cut evolutionary schism between the two. For example, cephalopods (octopus, squid) are animals in the game. Would other mollusks be animals too? I seem to remember a snail being designated vermin somewhere. Somewhere during the transition from gastropod to cephalopod it went from vermin to animal - why, and when did it happen?

Fish are animals, worms vermin. What about the basal proto-fish (Pikaia, etc.) of the Cambrian?

I think that their is a rather clear-cut division between the two, seeing as how worms, arachnids, insects, etc are different from animals. Won't players also wonder why insects are suddenly animals too? I know that, as a player, I would have.

Vermin aren't trainable at all, but neither are most fish, reptiles, and amphibians. I see no reason why vermin can't be animal companions, or wild shape choices for that matter. Handle Animal should work on vermin, if not to train them, to at least give the handler some degree of control over them (using pressure points, pheromones, bait (a fly on a fishing pole), etc.).

Ride should work in a similar fashion. (Through selective breeding, I for one believe it would be possible to produce a docile riding spider with even basal trainability.)

Still, this does seem to make since. I would be all for the conversion of vermin as a subtype. I might actually use it in my campaign.

 

[Kerrick]

I never quite understood the divide between vermin and animals, and why spells and effects that work on animals don't work on vermin.

Vermin are insects and arachnids. They're effectively mindless (they operate purely on instinct); thus, they're different from animals, which evince at least primitive thought processes.

"Vermin have no Intelligence score." Essentially, they're robots that work on instinct, right? However, I think their mental capacities are being underestimated - they can still feel fear, compulsions, etc. An ant's pheromones are a mind-influencing effect.

How do you figure? Pheromones are generally for communication, to let males know the female is ready to mate. It acts on their instinctive drive to reproduce, nothing more. As for fear... I doubt it. If you threaten harm to an insect or a spider, it'll flee out of self-preservation (again, instinct), but I seriously doubt it feels anything as concrete as "fear" - more like a sense of "must flee the threat to preserve my existence".

Vermin aren't trainable at all, but neither are most fish, reptiles, and amphibians. I see no reason why vermin can't be animal companions, or wild shape choices for that matter.

Vermin Wild Shape is an epic feat, and there are a couple PrCs that grant them as companions.

Handle Animal should work on vermin, if not to train them, to at least give the handler some degree of control over them (using pressure points, pheromones, bait (a fly on a fishing pole), etc.).

Ride should work in a similar fashion. (Through selective breeding, I for one believe it would be possible to produce a docile riding spider with even basal trainability.)

No argument there; drow use spiders as mounts, and I could imagine some race riding giant centipedes.

Therefore, I felt the vermin type should be revised as a subtype. Current vermin type are changed to animal (vermin). This requires very little bookkeeping - all that changes are Reflex saves to good (which vermin should, by all means, be good at)

Not all insects/arachnids are fast.

Vermin Subtype
Animals with the vermin subtype include insects, arachnids, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates.

They possess the following traits:

• Intelligence score of 1. Immunity to charms and morale effects (though still subject to fear).
• Subject to spells and effects that specifically target vermin.
• +5 to the DC of all Handle Animal, Ride, and Wild Empathy checks made to influence vermin.
• Tremorsense out to 60 ft. (This replaces Darkvision and is an ability most poor-sighted vermin actually have)
• Does not acquire feats.

You could just as easily keep the Vermin type and make those changes. I think it's easier simply to keep them mindless - they can be immune to mind-affecting, and there's no need to state they get no feats (which all sentient creatures do).

 

[Steinhauser]

Vermin are insects and arachnids. They're effectively mindless (they operate purely on instinct); thus, they're different from animals, which evince at least primitive thought processes.

Vermin also includes worms and some mollusks. As I stated above, cephalopods (octopuses) are animals yet gastropods (snails) are vermin - where is the dividing factor?

How do you figure? Pheromones are generally for communication, to let males know the female is ready to mate. It acts on their instinctive drive to reproduce, nothing more. As for fear... I doubt it. If you threaten harm to an insect or a spider, it'll flee out of self-preservation (again, instinct), but I seriously doubt it feels anything as concrete as "fear" - more like a sense of "must flee the threat to preserve my existence".

Ants use pheromones for more than just reproduction. Different scents trigger compulsory instincts - "follow", "alert", etc. These are worker ants I'm talking about - non-reproductory - and they're certainly not acting on instincts immediately beneficial to their personal survival.

Fear is just that - a self-preservation instinct. Why wouldn't vermin flee at a dragon's frightful presence? Why shouldn't a phantasmal killer conjure up a giant bird in the spider's mind and cause it to keel over?

Vermin Wild Shape is an epic feat, and there are a couple PrCs that grant them as companions.

It doesn't have to be so limited; vermin are essentially mundane, natural animals (sometimes unnaturally big, but the same goes for dire animals). They come from kingdom Animalia and have the same basic DNA structures as all animals. They should be considered animals from the get-go.

Not all insects/arachnids are fast.

Neither are all animals, who still get good Reflex.

We're talking about basal, brain-stem reflexes, not speed. Acting before you even know you're in danger. And insects are the kings of such feats.

You could just as easily keep the Vermin type and make those changes.

Except no wild shape, animal companions, handle animal, hold animal, whathaveyou.

I think it's easier simply to keep them mindless - they can be immune to mind-affecting, and there's no need to state they get no feats (which all sentient creatures do).

How much easier? There's virtually no toll on bookkeeping here. In fact it's probably the smallest change I can think of that will still affect how certain classes are played in a big way.

 

[Walking Dad]

How about a 'mindless' subtype for animals?

Wildshape to and getting 'vermin' as Animal Companions isn't powerful. Just look at the Hit Dice limit.

 

[Steinhauser]

It isn't a balance issue, so there's no reason to disallow it. As it stands it's just a meaningless limitation of having a "vermin" type.

Vermin aren't mindless, the way zombies and golems are mindless. They're just incredibly stupid, basal animals. So are sharks and snakes.

 

[Kerrick]

Vermin also includes worms and some mollusks. As I stated above, cephalopods (octopuses) are animals yet gastropods (snails) are vermin - where is the dividing factor?
According to the MM, the Vermin type includes "insects, arachnics, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates". Sounds pretty clear to me - if it's an insect, an arachnid, or doesn't have a backbone, it's Vermin.

Ants use pheromones for more than just reproduction. Different scents trigger compulsory instincts - "follow", "alert", etc. These are worker ants I'm talking about - non-reproductory - and they're certainly not acting on instincts immediately beneficial to their personal survival.

Like I said, "generall for communication".

Fear is just that - a self-preservation instinct. Why wouldn't vermin flee at a dragon's frightful presence? Why shouldn't a phantasmal killer conjure up a giant bird in the spider's mind and cause it to keel over?

Yeah...

It doesn't have to be so limited; vermin are essentially mundane, natural animals (sometimes unnaturally big, but the same goes for dire animals). They come from kingdom Animalia and have the same basic DNA structures as all animals. They should be considered animals from the get-go.

By that line of thought, so should humans, humanoids, and dragons. But I'm being overly argumentative.

Except no wild shape, animal companions, handle animal, hold animal, whathaveyou.

True.

How much easier? There's virtually no toll on bookkeeping here. In fact it's probably the smallest change I can think of that will still affect how certain classes are played in a big way.

True again.

It isn't a balance issue, so there's no reason to disallow it. As it stands it's just a meaningless limitation of having a "vermin" type.

Vermin aren't mindless, the way zombies and golems are mindless. They're just incredibly stupid, basal animals. So are sharks and snakes.

Actually, vermin don't have to be mindless - they just usually are. Same thing with constructs - the subtypes section states that they gain skill points and feats if they have an Intelligence score (and then notes that most don't). So, you could just give them Int 1 as a racial trait.

When I was doing monsters for Project Phoenix, I came across an odd problem - creatures with lots of HD were getting huge numbers of feats. Someone suggested a rather elegant solution: A creature cannot gain more feats than its Int score. That is, an animal (Int 1-2) can't have more than 2 feats, no matter how many HD it gets. Bonus feats, of course, are excepted. So, instead of having to come up with umpteen feats for things like dinosaurs, I just give them a couple basic feats and maybe 1-2 bonus feats. Bam - done. Course, if you're interested in the least amount of work possible, simply ruling that Vermin get no feats is much easier.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Vermin also includes worms and some mollusks. As I stated above, cephalopods (octopuses) are animals yet gastropods (snails) are vermin - where is the dividing factor?

According to the MM, the Vermin type includes "insects, arachnics, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates". Sounds pretty clear to me - if it's an insect, an arachnid, or doesn't have a backbone, it's Vermin.

Except that the giant octopus is an animal.

Personally, I think that the 'vermin as a subtype of animals' change is a fine one, although it might just be easier to replace all instance of "animal type" to "animal or vermin type" Which would accomplish almost the same thing.

 

[Steinhauser]

Like I said, "generall for communication".

Communication is a cognitive feature that many full-blown D&D animals lack.

By that line of thought, so should humans, humanoids, and dragons. But I'm being overly argumentative.

Hoho, now that you mention it...

Naw, I won't go there. Separation of the two is more necessary from a balance perspective. But the two (animals and humanoids) are about as different from each other, stat-wise, as animals are from vermin. I think this is intentional. (Dragons are magical creatures and fall under a different category entirely.)

I like the idea of capping the feats to a creature's Intelligence. Of course the other route is to go all Toughness like Triceratops.