Vampires and Disintegrate, does it destroy it? + Libris Mortis question

[Arravis]

So, what happens if a vampire is hit by a Disintegrate spell and fails the save... does he turn into gaseous form and returns to his coffin or is he destroyed outright?

Also, Libris Mortis has the following feat:

Improved Energy Drain: Whenever you bestow a negative level upon a creature, you gain a +1 bonus on skill checks, ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws for 1 hour.

Do those bonuses stack per negative level dealt or is it just a +1 for an hour, regardless of how many negative levels are dealt out?

Well, thanks guys!

 

[Arravis]

Just to help clarify things, here are some of the relevant rules from the SRD:

From the Vampire entry:

"If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed."

From the Undead entry:

"Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)."

And lastly, from the Disintegrate entry:

"Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (object)"

"Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust."

 

[Azaar]

Hrmm... tough call. I'll give my opinion, though I won't proclaim to be an expert -- so anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd rule that the disintegrate, if it drops a vampire to 0 hp, forces it to revert to gaseous form, and allows the vampire to work normally.

As for Improved Energy Drain from Libris Mortis: the bonus is an untyped bonus, so I believe they would stack for each negative level. So a vampire's slam attack, with successful energy drain, should give you a +2 bonus to skill checks/ability checks/saves.

 

[evilbob]

I just asked the first question in another thread.

The answer to #2 is "yes," however. As Azaar said, they are unnamed bonuses, and they stack. Vamps get 2 per hit.

 

[Arravis]

The answer to #2 is "yes," however. As Azaar said, they are unnamed bonuses, and they stack. Vamps get 2 per hit.

Wow... that seem insanely overpowered, or is it just me?

 

[eamon]

I'd say disintegrate works, but it's a matter of flavor.

Clearly, disintigrate will turn an affected vampire to dust, as per the spell description (if the spell reduces it to 0 hit points or lower). The question is whether a vampire thus destroyed can still become gaseous. Is it killed only because it reaches 0 hp, or can it be killed by being disintegrated to fine dust? A vampire is only protected against the first form of destruction.

The vampire entry describes a number of other means to kill a vampire, so clearly it is possible to kill a vampire without it reverting to gaseous form. In general, the section on "Slaying a Vampire" doesn't preclude other means of killing a vampire, it just lists a few and notes that hit point damage doesn't always kill a vampire.

However, vampires aren't especially protected against disintegrate, so it seems, therefore I think it should destroy a vampire completely.

Indeed, it's a tough call, and if a campaign called for it flavor-wise, I wouldn't hesitate to rule the other way (but would mention it to players, then).

 

[Slaved]

I say that the disintegrated vampire poofs into his normal 0 hit point cloud and drifts away.

For the other I am less certain but since it is a single ability normally you run into the nonstacking of abilities with themselves which would mean only one bonus at a time but the number of times it is on the creature and how much longer the creature would get the benefit would change.

 

[eamon]

Wow... that seem insanely overpowered, or is it just me?

A vampire first needs to hit for this effect to work at all. Assuming a vampire has none of these bonuses before a combat, then in the vital first round he won't have an advantage, and this effect doesn't increase his survivability.

However, a twinked vampire with a bag of tricks that drains all animals he can find right before a battle might gain a huge bonus - but not to damage, only to hit. Still, such a usage is probably broken if you try hard enough. Almost arbitrarily high skill and ability checks seem mighty abusable to me. Initiative, for instance, is an ability check, as is use magic device - and both of these check can get mighty powerful.

In the hands of a DM who's trying to keep things believable, its not a problem. In the hands of a player...

 

[Arravis]

In the hands of a DM who's trying to keep things believable, its not a problem. In the hands of a player...

Ahh... what irony, for you see although I'm the main DM, we round-robyn DM from time to time, and its my character that's the vampire! Horror of horrors.
(It's a 9th level campaign set in Menzoberranzan... most of the players are drow, except for my character and my wife's. We are both playing slaves, I'm a human vampire and she's a kobold [assassin, but none know this]).

So I'm thinking of a few fixes: Capping it at +5, changing the duration to 1 round, or having the bonus only work against the creature from which you've drained.

 

[evilbob]

Of those ideas, I'd think capping it at some even number would be the closest to the original intent. Maybe 6? (Only because vamps get 2 per hit.)

Lower durations and the "only against those you hit" thing are a bit much.

But yes: in the hands of a player this is a pretty amazing ability, since it can make an already spiraling-into-one-sided battle go bad even faster.


As for the disentigrate question, as I also laid it out, it's really a "which trumps which" question: both the vampire's description and the spell's description state that when the target reaches zero HP, X happens. You just have to decide which is the more important X, or which X trumps the other one.

Sunbeam is a 7th level spell that can clearly kill a vampire; if disentigrate were the same level I'd say it counts. But since it's a level lower, there's more of a question. Is it ok for a 6th level spell (one that actually has a good chance of working, since a vamp's Fort is very poor) to slay a vampire?