vampire blood drain

[CLAVDIVS]

I picked up Green Ronin's Fang & Fury a while ago, and generally prefer their version of vampire. However, basing their blood drinking on HP causes some weirdness, like higher level vampires having to feed more often (and if there's no high-HD prey around, they'd have to nearly wipe out a village every night). Having them drain Con makes more sense, although I've never understood why the Con loss was permanent (until magically restored) if all it's supposed to be is lost blood.

So I had an idea for an alternative, sort of a fusion of official D&D vampires and GR's vampire scion. Each day, the vampire (otherwise identical to the GR version, or you could tack this onto a standard vamp) takes damage equal to half his HD; this work out to the equivalent of a living being losing 1 Con per day. This damage (the Thirst) can only be healed by drinking blood. When he uses his blood drain attack, he does 1d4 Con damage (not drain) and heals damage equal to half his HD per Con point the victim loses; again, this works out the same as a living being recovering an equal amount of lost Con.

Obviously, healing this quickly is a very powerful ability, especially since its usage is limited only by the availablity of prey; even an epic vampire reduced to single-digit HP could be at full health in under a minute if he were able to escape the fight and find a couple random victims. As such, you may want to add a limiting factor: this healing only applies to HP lost to the Thirst, and any use of blood drain beyond that only grants the usual 5 temporary HP.

Vampires are also vulnerable to the blood drain attacks of other vampires (and possibly other Con-draining blood drinkers), even though they have no Con score. Each point of Con they would lose instead translates to half their HD in HP, just like the Thirst. This damage is considered equivalent to that caused by the Thirst, meaning it can be healed with blood drain as above.

Switching back to Con-based blood draining keeps vampires in line with other vampire-like blood-drinkers (like the glaistig). It also makes the lifedrinker prestige class workable again; however, drained Con cannot both heal Thirst damage and add to the lifewell, only one or the other.

For "living vampires", such as a damphir or the "natural hunters" variant in Fang & Fury, replace the HP loss with actual Con damage (1 per day); draining blood heals Con damage equal to what the victim suffers. If you use the "only Thirst damage" limitation, then the same applies here; Con damage from poison, for example, could not be healed by feeding.

So, thoughts? Comments? Torches and pitchforks?

 

[Insight]

I noticed that according to the Vampire template in 3.5 (and probably 3.0), there is no reason other than healing damage that a Vampire would need to drink blood. I understand that, because these are normally applied to foes, they don't need a good reason, but you could potentially have a PC with this template, and there needs to be a better reason for them to drain blood than just for healing from combat. That just doesn't jive with the various vampire legends out there. Vampires tend to need to feed over time, not just due to fighting.

I like the concept you mentioned about Vampires continually losing HP and needing to feed to restore the lost points. That makes sense to me, and is similar to what I was thinking of introducing in my game to deal with the problem mentioned above.

One thing you could do to deal with the 'healing too fast' problem is to put a cap on how much can be drained in one round, or with one action. You could even have it be different depending on whether you took a Standard Action for the drain (thus not provoking AoO) or a Full Round Action (and provoking if applicable).

Since I have not seen Fang & Fury, I can't really comment on the rest of your ideas for conversion, though I would like to point out that I don't think a Vampire's Con Drain is permanent, at least it shouldn't be. As you stated already, since it is blood drain, and humanoids regenerate their blood supply, anything based on losing blood should be temporary. I can kinda see the supernatural aspect of a sort of unnatural wound or something, but it seems a bit of a stretch that this sort of thing would be permanent. Obviously, the energy drain thing has a chance to be permanent if the subject fails a save.

Note: I don't really understand why Vampires have both Con Drain and Energy Drain. Where is this Energy Drain coming from? In previous editions of the game, several Undead had this Energy Drain ability, but this was before the ability drain powers were brought into 3.x. Energy Drain was all you had prior to 3rd Ed. Not sure why Vampires still have this ability, since they already have the Con Drain.

Anyway, sorry to carry the discussion a bit off topic there, but since this is a Vampire thread... Figured I would ask anyway.

 

[CLAVDIVS]

I noticed that according to the Vampire template in 3.5 (and probably 3.0), there is no reason other than healing damage that a Vampire would need to drink blood.

Actually, even drinking blood to heal doesn't work very well for the official vampire. Both energy drain and blood drain only grant 5 temporary HP, which only last an hour. As for a need to feed, Libris Mortis does actually cover that. It works almost like an addiction: They have to make Will saves to avoid Wis damage when they go without for too long, and become more mentally unstable the lower their Wis gets; at 0, they turn into a ravening beast that cares only about ending their hunger.

I like the concept you mentioned about Vampires continually losing HP and needing to feed to restore the lost points. That makes sense to me, and is similar to what I was thinking of introducing in my game to deal with the problem mentioned above.

Not my idea, originally. The vampire scion in F&F loses 1d8 + its HD each day at noon to the Thirst; it's blood drain attack drains 2d4 HP, which it gains. A decent system, but one of the weird bits is that a 20th level vampire loses 1d8+20 HP every day. Just imagine how many low-level NPC's he has to go through every night just to break even.

One thing you could do to deal with the 'healing too fast' problem is to put a cap on how much can be drained in one round, or with one action.

Both the standard vampire and vampire scion must grapple and successfully pin to drain blood, and can only drain once each round they maintain the pin. I have no intention of changing that.

Since I have not seen Fang & Fury, I can't really comment on the rest of your ideas for conversion, though I would like to point out that I don't think a Vampire's Con Drain is permanent, at least it shouldn't be.

In the MM glossary under "ability score loss", it specifies that ability damage is temporary and heals over time, and ability drain is permanent until magically restored. Vampires, and most other Con-based blood-drinkers, inflict Con drain. That's why I specified (and italicized) Con damage in my first post.

Note: I don't really understand why Vampires have both Con Drain and Energy Drain. Where is this Energy Drain coming from? In previous editions of the game, several Undead had this Energy Drain ability, but this was before the ability drain powers were brought into 3.x. Energy Drain was all you had prior to 3rd Ed. Not sure why Vampires still have this ability, since they already have the Con Drain.

I dunno, it feels more like a legacy rule than anything else. Even in 1e I wondered why there was no mention of vampired ever drinking blood. I have no real problem with the concept or mechanics of energy drain, except for the chance of losing a level for real. IMHO, the only thing that should cause an actual level loss is death and resurrection.

Anyway, sorry to carry the discussion a bit off topic there, but since this is a Vampire thread... Figured I would ask anyway.

Wasn't that off-topic, glad to fill in your blanks for you. ^_^

In the cold light of the morning, I have to wonder if I'm just over-thinking this. My biggest problem is that the need to feed scales with level but the benefit of feeding doesn't, resulting in high-level vampires who regard an entire family as a light snack. Maybe the ideal solution is to just drop the "+HD" from the Thirst rules. Logically, if simple blood volume is what matters then Con damage makes more sense than HP, since higher-level characters don't contain more blood. However, if one thinks of it as a more metaphysical "life force" being drained, and blood is simply the physical medium for accessing it, then draining HP works; there's even a precedent for higher-level chars having more life force, because they have more levels to lose to energy drain. And if I want the lifedrinker prc to work again, vampires scions drain twice as much HP as vampires drain Con (2d4 HP to 1d4 Con), so I could treat every 2 HP drained that aren't needed for healing as equivalent to 1 Con for lifewell purposes.

Anyhoo, check out Fang & Fury. It's quite nifty. Instead of putting everything on the template, they only give it the most basic of vampire powers and keep it to a +2 LA. All the other vampire powers come from feats or prestige classes. Some of the classes are a bit atypical and have particular setting elements in mind; not a bad thing, mind you, but if they don't fit your campaign you may have to tweak. For example, the foundling prc (which grants shapeshifting abilities) is for elven vampires allied with the unseelie court; if you just wanted it to let vampires shapeshift, you can drop the race requirement and maybe replace the unseelie companion with an animal companion. Vampire weaknesses are also pretty extensive, but you can trim those down if you prefer (for example, I'd keep immersion and staking but drop sunlight and church bells).

The only other problem I have with the book is some of the other templates (like the blood puppet and daywalker) that change all HD to d12's without making the creature undead. In fact, if I were to allow vampire PC's (or maybe even if I didn't) I'd strongly consider not changing HD from classes at all: Undead racial HD are d12's, but nothing in the Undead type description says that all other HD have to be d12's as well, any more than the Humanoid type requires all other HD to be d8's. (I won't muck with liches, tho, all those extra HP is part of the point of becoming one.)

 

[Insight]

Actually, even drinking blood to heal doesn't work very well for the official vampire. Both energy drain and blood drain only grant 5 temporary HP, which only last an hour. As for a need to feed, Libris Mortis does actually cover that. It works almost like an addiction: They have to make Will saves to avoid Wis damage when they go without for too long, and become more mentally unstable the lower their Wis gets; at 0, they turn into a ravening beast that cares only about ending their hunger.

But even in the RAW, they would NEVER be able to heal themselves, except with Inflict spells LOL. That's retarded. Didn't realize it was temp hit points. That's just dumb. Undead cannot heal themselves except with Inflict spells. The Energy/Con Drain is the only way a Vamp can heal otherwise. Plus, how would they ever heal that Wis damage? I doubt Restoration spells work on Undead.

The way I was thinking of doing it, since I have a PC who just got slapped with the Vampire template, is to have the PC lose 6 HP/day (or if you want a scalable system, HD worth of HP per day) unless they feed. This damage is not healable except through the Con drain/dmg ability. I think that fixes the problem nicely, and forces the Vampire to feed much more frequently.

In the MM glossary under "ability score loss", it specifies that ability damage is temporary and heals over time, and ability drain is permanent until magically restored. Vampires, and most other Con-based blood-drinkers, inflict Con drain. That's why I specified (and italicized) Con damage in my first post.

I agree with you. Should be Con DAMAGE, not DRAIN.

I dunno, it feels more like a legacy rule than anything else. Even in 1e I wondered why there was no mention of vampired ever drinking blood. I have no real problem with the concept or mechanics of energy drain, except for the chance of losing a level for real. IMHO, the only thing that should cause an actual level loss is death and resurrection.

Ditto here. I think I'll just get rid of it and drop the ECL a level or two. Seems redundant on top of the Con Drain/Damage ability and doesn't really match what a Vampire does. I don't have a problem with Spectres and Wights having Energy Drain, but Vamps should have Con Drain/Damage.

In the cold light of the morning, I have to wonder if I'm just over-thinking this. My biggest problem is that the need to feed scales with level but the benefit of feeding doesn't, resulting in high-level vampires who regard an entire family as a light snack. Maybe the ideal solution is to just drop the "+HD" from the Thirst rules. Logically, if simple blood volume is what matters then Con damage makes more sense than HP, since higher-level characters don't contain more blood. However, if one thinks of it as a more metaphysical "life force" being drained, and blood is simply the physical medium for accessing it, then draining HP works; there's even a precedent for higher-level chars having more life force, because they have more levels to lose to energy drain. And if I want the lifedrinker prc to work again, vampires scions drain twice as much HP as vampires drain Con (2d4 HP to 1d4 Con), so I could treat every 2 HP drained that aren't needed for healing as equivalent to 1 Con for lifewell purposes.

There is a disconnect between need and benefit, especially with the SRD template. According to the template, there is really no need to feed, and if you force them to feed by slapping on a thirst weakness (not a bad idea), you have to change how much the Vamp drains, especially if the thirst thing scales with level/HD.

I kinda like the idea of draining (or damaging) 1d4+(1/3HD), so a 3 HD Vamp drains/damages for 1d4+1, while a 12 HD Vamp drains/damages for 1d4+4 pts. Of course, this needs to translate into HP if you are using that as opposed to Wis loss for the Vamp in question. For HP, you could multiply the amt drained x the Vamp's HD or some similar formula. That might be a little high though - the 3 HD Vamp above drains 1d4+1 and would heal himself for (1d4+1) x 3 HP per attempt, for 6 - 15 HP, while the 12 HD Vamp heals drains 1d4+4 and would heal himself for (1d4+4) x 12 HP per attempt, or 60 - 96 HP!

There's probably a better way to handle healing HP for Vamps. I was thinking 1 HD worth per attempt would be good and easy to adjudicate during a game. This would again cause a higher level Vamp to need to drink more to sustain himself, but I don't that in and of itself is a huge problem if you scale how much they lose per day due to not drinking. Maybe you don't need to scale both the drain AND the replenishment, or maybe there's an easier way to scale both than with some crazy formula!

 

[Insight]

Here's a Vampire Variant Template I came up with (note that most of this is same as SRD):

New items are in bold

VAMPIRE [Variant]
Vampires appear just as they did in life, although their features are often hardened and feral, with the predatory look of wolves.
Like liches, they often embrace finery and decadence and may assume the guise of nobility. Despite their human appearance, vampires can be easily recognized, for they cast no shadows and throw no reflections in mirrors.
Vampires speak any languages they knew in life.

CREATING A VAMPIRE
“Vampire” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A vampire uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.
Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.
Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerable to immersion in running water (see below).
Armor Class: The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +6.
Attack: A vampire retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a slam attack if it didn’t already have one. If the base creature can use weapons, the vampire retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons. A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any). A vampire armed with a weapon uses its slam or a weapon, as it desires.
Full Attack: A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack.
Damage: Vampires have slam attacks. If the base creature does not have this attack form, use the appropriate damage value from the table below according to the vampire’s size. Creatures that have other kinds of natural weapons retain their old damage values or use the appropriate value from the table below, whichever is better.
Size Damage
Fine 1
Diminutive 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 2d8
Colossal 4d6

Special Attacks: A vampire retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 vampire’s HD + vampire’s Cha modifier unless noted otherwise.
Children of the Night (Su): Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.
Create Spawn (Su): A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn (see the Vampire Spawn entry) 1d4 days after burial.
If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.
Dominate (Su): A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.
Drink Blood (Ex): A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains an equal amount of Wisdom, up to his or her maximum Wisdom score. Surplus points last one hour, and may be added to either Strength, Dexterity, or Charisma, as the vampire chooses.
Special Qualities: A vampire retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.
Alternate Form (Su): A vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action. This ability is similar to a polymorph spell cast by a 12th-level character, except that the vampire does not regain hit points for changing form and must choose from among the forms mentioned here. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)
Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic. A vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Resistances (Ex): A vampire has resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10.
Spider Climb (Ex): A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.
Turn Resistance (Ex): A vampire has +4 turn resistance.
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.
Skills: Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature.
Feats: Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn’t already have these feats.
Environment: Any, usually same as base creature.
Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3–5), or troupe (1–2 plus 2–5 vampire spawn)
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2.
Treasure: Double standard.
Alignment: Always evil (any).
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +5.

Vampire Weaknesses
For all their power, vampires have a number of weaknesses.
Repelling a Vampire: Vampires recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action. (Removed weakness to garlic)
Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.
They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.
Animals and other beings close to nature can always detect the unnatural presence of a vampire. Thus, vampires cannot have pets or familiars other than rats, bats, wolves, and snakes, and a vampire may not ride a mount unless he first uses his or her Dominate ability on the creature. Other beings that may be able to sense the vampire’s presence includes (but is not limited to) elves, druids, lycanthropes, and faerie creatures.
Slaying a Vampire: Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).
The Thirst: Vampires must feed on the blood of the living. It sustains them in their Undead state, and they have a compulsion to drink blood whenever threatened, or when they see or smell it. When a vampire takes any damage in combat, or anyone within 30 feet of the vampire takes damage from a suitable attack form (usually in the form of a piercing or slashing weapon/attack), he or she must make a Will save DC 10 or attempt to drink from the nearest source. This source must be a living creature. For every day that passes between feedings, the vampire takes one point of Wisdom damage that cannot be cured except through feeding.

Vampire Characters
Vampires are always evil, which causes characters of certain classes to lose some class abilities. In addition, certain classes take additional penalties.
Clerics: Vampire clerics lose their ability to turn undead but gain the ability to rebuke undead. This ability does not affect the vampire’s controller or any other vampires that a master controls. A vampire cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.
Paladins: Because vampires are evil, Paladins who become vampires lose access to all Paladin class abilities. See the Paladin class description for more information.
Sorcerers and Wizards: Vampire sorcerers and wizards retain their class abilities, but if a character has a familiar other than a rat or bat, the link between them is broken, and the familiar shuns its former companion. The character can summon another familiar, but it must be a rat or bat.

I think the combination of Drink Blood + The Thirst works pretty well. It doesn't scale with Hit Dice as I would have liked, but it's easy to adjudicate, which is just as good in my opinion.