Using Poison Evil?

[Philip]

I always wondered why using poison should be evil. The Book of Exalted Deeds says it is evil because it causes undue suffering in the process of incapacitating or killing an opponent.

Does this mean that casting a Cloudkill spell is an inherently evil act? Should Cloudkill and Poison spells get an evil descriptor?

The Book of Exalted Deeds also describes something called ravages. These are effectively poisons, but because they affect only evil creatures they are considered good?

What about methods versus goals. Evil methods are always evil, regardless of whether they are used on good or evil targets, right?

And does this mean that a Purified Cloudkill (which does not affect good creatures) is not evil?

 

[Thanee]

The whole good vs. evil topic is a bit weird.

Poisons are borderline evil, but in the end, I still think, it's the way they are used more than the fact that they are.

Some methods of killing, which involve suffering and pain more than others, could be seen as evil, but it's hard to draw a line there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Philip]

The whole good vs. evil topic is a bit weird.

I agree, but if my paladinhood depends on it, I would rather have some solid guidelines.

And if poison is evil, maybe giving lethal injections to people with a death sentence should be replaced by burning them alive, hacking them apart with swords or stoning them.

 

[Thanee]

As a paladin I would always step back from methods which are morally questionable.

A paladin is special in his pursuit of good and should be in his strict code, which to others (who are 'merely good') might seem exaggerated.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hammerhead]

Is Poison Evil? I can't see why. Some people might say it causes more pain and death than a sword wound, but that's really not true. If you're stabbed, it might take several hours to die. Poison shortens that time to a few seconds. In addition, I'm sure crushing someone's lung is far more painful than giving them purple worm poison.

However, using poison would break the paladin's code. While lying certainly isn't evil, it is prohibited by the code as well. Much of the code has to do with honor, and using poison to take someone down certainly isn't very honorable.

 

[Steverooo]

Poison is neither Good nor Evil. Like other liquids and pastes, it is unaligned.

Using poison, generally, is evil, because it is used to murder. Murder is wrong, regardless of circumstances.

Using poison on someone you're going to kill in combat, anyway, may not be evil, but it's also neither good nor the real point... If the PCs start using poison to kill their enemies, then it will be "too easy", XP will roll in, and they will level too fast, without really earning it. Making poison use an "Evil" act helps keep it under control.

I rarely ever use poison, although I have often wanted some paralytic or catatonia-inducing poison with which I could disable opponents without killing them... I have never gotten it, though.

Once, a RQ Barbarian did use poison, however, despite the GM's objections... He was going to fight a nest of giant spiders, and figured "If they're going to use it against me, I don't see why I can't use it against them!"

If you're going to let PCs use poison, the common folk should rightly fear them. Let their enemies have it, too, and cut the XP for everything else by about 20. Then let the "dishonorable" PCs rack up Infamy, and watch their acts and alignment...

 

[Hammerhead]

But killing isn't wrong. That's the point of D&D, to kick ass and get cool stuff. What's the difference between raising an army to hack your way into the evil overlord's castle, then challenge him to one-on-one combat and beat him down and having a rogue sneak past the guards and poison his supper with Black Lotus Extract? Sure, one way involves far less bloodshed and mayhem...but it's not honorable! Evil! Evil!

Further, poison does not make things too easy. Most enemies have far too high Fortitude saves to be affected reliably by poison, unless you use purple worm poison or something similarily nasty. Second, poison is expensive. If PCs try using it every fight (and really, most likely only rogues will) they'll become very broke very fast.

And how on earth would anyone know if you used a poison dagger to kill the evil wizard, or it was just a lucky shot? Or a magic weapon or power? Do you think people watch the adventurers when they hunt down the bad guys? And of course, it's cool if the PCs use Fireballs, Great Cleaves, Enervations, or Destructions to kill the bad guys; but not poison.

Poison is a weapon, just like a sword or a Wand of Fireballs. It should generally be used with care, like most weapons, but its use by an individual, and not its chemical composition, determines whether it's evil.

 

[FCWesel]

I have a player who has a Gobber (Iron Kingdoms race) Scout (Ranger) whose favoured "ranger combat style" is a blowgun (instead of the bow thing--just gave him precise shot), so he's going to be using poisons...a lot.

From a mechanics standpoint they are not any easier IMO becuase poisons are either expensive or dangerous to get. This expense in time and or money is a great balancing factor. Not to mention in many places you're going to have to find someone who has it to sell, much less sell it to you.

From a moral standpoint, if the poison has no chance of directly killing somone outright, I would think that would be a bit more human in the long run. For instance, him using a poison to knock-out a guard as opposed to coming up behind him and cutting him down (sneak attack) is far nicer.

I am going to play it by the ear. The character is NG, so the legal/chos use is 50/50, but as a good being there will deffinetly come a time when he will find poisons that will "be evil" to use.

From the player's prespective, he wants subduing poisons for the most part so he doesn't have to get into H-2-H combat if he wants to avoid it. (He's a small, sneaky type of scout.)

 

[Zhure]

This isn't really a rules reason, but IMO, poison is evil because it's indiscriminate. If a paladin uses a bow, it's not a continuing danger to society in and of itself. Loosing the arrow has a small chance of missing the intended target and accidentally injuring or killing someone else.

If on the other hand it's poisoned, then every expended arrow is a possible long-term menace. Some small blind kobold child carrying a bucket of snails might stumble on it, and wind up being murdered by the paladin's actions.

I suppose instead of being evil, poison is almost more 'chaotic.'

Greg

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

If on the other hand it's poisoned, then every expended arrow is a possible long-term menace. Some small blind kobold child carrying a bucket of snails might stumble on it, and wind up being murdered by the paladin's actions.

So Paladins have a moral obligation to keep their poisoned weapons out of reach of children. (Or out of children, as those wonderful knives are labelled.)

Gotcha.

On another note, "Poison Evil" sounds like a weird Paladin/Assassin class ability.