Using Detect Evil/Good

[Thornir Alekeg]

I was wondering how other people use the Detect Evil/Good spells or abilities in their campaigns.

I'm finding that it creates complications to play it exactly as written in the rules. I have a Paladin in my party and he likes to use the ability to determine if the people the party may be dealing with are evil or not. If they have an "evil" alignment, either the party will not deal with them, or they may even prepare to attack (depends upon the circumstances). I'm feeling like things should not be quite so black and white, that there are some beings like demons that are truly "evil", but most creatures have a blend of good and evil, regardless of their official alignment, and there is the issue of what is evil to one person, may not be evil to another.

I'm trying to figure out how to play this. I have been considering using a scale where most people tend to show up as a blend of good and evil and that a persons own perception of themselves can shift the blend: a vigilante who is convinced that killing criminals is a good act because it protects the innoncent would push the scale towards the good side while a generally good and devout person who is can only see that he is a sinner and feels he is not worthy would push toward evil. Someone using a detect spell would see the person viewed and this skewed blend, then would be able to use Sense Motive to try and see through the shift to the true heart of the person. I was also figuring that a higher level caster would gain bonuses to see truly as they have more experience using the spell.

What do you think? Any suggestions?

 

[Munin]

I feel the same way you do, and there are several ways to address the problem.

1: Leave it as it is. The rules aren't broken, just the player's perspective of them. Remember that the Detect line of spells gauge the strength of the aura as well as it's presence. So a demon will register as 'more evil' than a thug. In the real world, few people would Detect as truly evil or good, but somewhere in between. Most, I feel, would fall closer to neutral, they do what suits them.
Soon the paladin will realize that the majority of people he contacts will have some measure of 'taint' and think nothing of it until someone really lights up.

2: The spell only works for 'true' evil or good. Look in the MM. If the entry does not say 'always evil', then detect evil won't work. Example: The sultry wench who just murdered her lover in a fit of jealousy, not evil. The sultry wench who is a succubus in disguise, most evil.

3: Change the game mechanic to suit the campaign. For example, if your campaign involves hunting demons or other creatures from the lower planes, you can modify the Detect Evil ability of the paladin to one that allows him to detect planar creatures. This actually works really well for a themed campaign.

Hope that helps you.

 

[WayneLigon]

You might want to check out The Book of Hallowed Might from Malhavoc Press. Monte Cook gives an alternate alignment system in there that has a scale from 1-10 for Law-Chaos and Good-Evil. If you're using a more 'real world' measurement of alignment, that might help you. You can, for instance, have the overzealous but still good-at-heart judge (Law 8 Good 2), the virtuous Paladin (Law 6 Good 8), the black sheep of the paladin order (Law 3 Good 6), etc etc.

 

[biorph]

Hmm, you may encounter the same problem at higher levels when your mage get's silent/still detect thoughts. One option, you could do what raveloft does, where evil and good can't be detected, and give the paladin Detect Law instead. The nondetection, undetectable alignment, and rings of mind shielding can go a long way towards making the campaign better in the short term but over time may be a problem. Consider adding neutrality based villian to the campaign to help sort this out.

It also helps when dealing with people who do the wrong thing for the right reasons (yeah he slaughtered a village, but he did it to save an entire country). Do they understand/believe what they did was wrong and are they sorry for it? I tend to go by evil of the heart rather than anything else. If a person knows it's wrong and is sorry for it, neutral, if they aren't sorry, evil. If they don't think it's wrong (like a person owning slaves) maybe even good.

you could also have this lead to adventure hooks, an entire village of people who detect evil, but aren't? Also the paladin is still obligated to help these people if they ask for it, not if they want him to deliver a nondescript package to an undisclosed location, but if they look to be wanting to redeem themselves, and need some help perhaps. just some thoughts.

 

[Vaxalon]

Remember that the Paladin's detection is obvious; when he concentrates on the ability, people will be able to tell. Anyone who wants to conceal his evilness need only move around.

Remember that under most circumstances, simply having an evil aura isn't sufficient reason to attack. The person could be under an evil curse, could be posessed by an evil spirit or ghost, or could be carrying an evil artifact.

If the plots you are using involve having evil people duping the party, and the party are using detect evil to keep from being duped, then perhaps they don't like plots where they get duped, and want more straightforward plots.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

One option is to consider how people could react to detect evil. It is not an instant ability and the paladin could have to make it obvious that they are using it? Chanting, hand waving, possibly even holy light shining out of their eyes, etc, etc... IIRC, it is a spell like ability that takes an action to cast, and 3 rounds of concentration to determine the extent of evil in the arc in front of you.

Surely, most people are going to get very defensive about being subjected to this sort of treatment without very good reasons? To take a modern day example, how many friends are you going to have if you insist on hooking everyone you meet up to a polygraph machine before talking to them? So, in other words, most people are not going to want to have anything to do with an overly inquisitive Paladin.

Even worse, how does someone know they're 'only' getting a detect evil cast at them? How do they know that the paladin isn't an evil wizard trying to turn them into a newt?

Another point to bear in mind is the legality of the spell. If you kill someone, then what sort of defense is 'my holy instincts told me they were evil, m'lord'?

Of course, the paladin could sneak around, surreptitiously detect people... but that's not very 'honest', is it

Does leave the ability intact, so it can be used in apt. situations.

 

[jessemock]

Toss it.

That's my take. The problem that I have--even with a scaled alignment system, such as Monte's--is that alignment detection seems always to reduce to a kill/not-kill judgement. I mean that, in all of the examples people tend to give for shading good and evil, the process still remains one of determining whether to fight or not: the PCs cast a spell, and, based on the results, they determine, in a single round, how they will thenceforth treat with an NPC.

How about simply asking the PCs to respond to NPC behaviour? They meet someone, they observe, they interact with him, they make judgements, they react.

I'm not one for tossing alignment completely--it adds to gameplay and its starkness is in accord with the usual means of conflict resolution in D&D, as well as its heroic themes, but I think that alignment-based mechanics, especially detection spells, force an abruptness on the game that usually lends a contrived aspect to the atmosphere. They cut things short, in other words; they prevent the development of mystery and, therefore, of character.

Yes; it remains a question of black, white, and grey hats, but the point is that it's more interesting when people aren't wearing them.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

If the plots you are using involve having evil people duping the party, and the party are using detect evil to keep from being duped, then perhaps they don't like plots where they get duped, and want more straightforward plots.

Although, that is a very good point. I've managed to overuse that before and the less said about it the better: For future reference, I just won't design a DnD game while running running a paranoia filled Shadowrun game.

 

[Gothmog]

I had this problem too with the paladin in my group. If detect evil registers ANY evil, its too prone to abuse and alignment-based pogroms. Plus, it doesn't fit well into the worldview or cosmology of my campaign. My solution was to redefine what detect evil detected. Basically, it will only detect creatures that by their inherent natures are evil (demons, devils, daemons, undead, some fey, some elementals). However, these creatures get a SR roll to be able to avoid detection if they are aware the paladin is trying to use the ability. It will NOT detect a Neutral Evil rogue, a Lawful Evil warlord, or a Chaotic Evil necromancer. It will register evil clerics, but only at an aura strength equal to 1/2 their level. The consequence of this is that when something registers as evil now, the paladin KNOWS there is bad trouble nearby, and the party is more cautious and somewhat scared.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I define evil in my games, these are actions or things that show as evil (you can assign a rank if you want to show which is more evil). All are based around my gods, good vs evil, plus a few other things. This means when detect is used, one or more items on the list is being performed or has been performed. Items are standard stuff, murder, oath-breaking, mind-control, being a orc, worshipping this or that god, cannibalism, so on.

Also think about what protection a person can get to prevent being seen as a evil person. Some is easy, assassians that the stain on to themselves, which may mean the person who hired him shows up as a lesser evil. Another is the role religion plays in your game, does an evil person have their sins washed away by being a good temple goer? Does worship of a god offer protection, you can use devine rank here, the DR is a number to overcome to dectect evil/good. Plus there are spells and items to hide things.