two vampire-killing questions

[evilbob]

So it's pretty straightforward that sunlight and running water kill vampires. That's in their description.

We've also got disruption weapons, and the greater turning ability of the Sun domain. These simply destroy undead when effective. Regular turning would also work if you were high enough level, relative to the vampire.

It's not really clear, but staking vampires - apparently this is usually interpreted to mean "while helpless" - is also in their stat block. So you've got a chance when they are helpless after a battle and in their coffin, or if you use a spell like halt undead.

My first question: would disentigrate work?

It's a fort spell that works on objects, so it is clear enough that it would affect them. However, the spell says it does Xd6 damage and if a creature is reduced to 0, it turns to dust. But a vampire's description says that if it takes enough damage to reduce it to 0, it turns into its gaseous form and flies away. So which trumps the other? Does the spell's effect trump the monster's ability or vice versa? (My thought was that the spell would destroy it, but the language is so similar I wasn't sure.)

Second question: can you effectively destroy a vampire by destroying its coffin and then reducing it to zero HP (causing it to be in gaseous form for 2 hours and then be destroyed), OR can a vampire simply go back to any coffin in order to regain its strength?

The language refers only to "its" coffin in the text describing fast healing, which leads me to believe that every vampire has its own coffin and only that one coffin will do. There's nothing saying a vampire will specifically suffer in any immediate way by losing its coffin; it could honestly wander around forever (until reduced to zero HP). But, if a vampire does lose its original coffin, could it make another? Does it only have one coffin ever? Or, does it really matter what coffin the vampire sleeps in - if it cannot find its own, would any do? The broader question might be: is a vampire tied to the grave dirt of its own grave, any grave dirt, or just the earth in general?

Ideas?

 

[Drowbane]

1) Yes, I believe Disintegrate wins out here.

2a) Back in 2e (and older) Vampires could only recover while laying upon the soil of thier homeland... which was typically in coffins throughout thier lairs. I think this may've been a Ravenloft thing... but each of my groups back then observed it.

2b) 3e hasn't really done much fluff for vampires (Libris Mortis included), so when in doubt look to previous editions that did... or simply ask your DM

 

[doosler]

How about, you chop off his head, and carry it around with you in a sack, tied up tightly with a rope with about six knots. Sure, maybe the vampire could TECHNICALLY come back to life, but let's be honest, even if his body comes in search of his head, how can he find it when his EYES are covered by the darkness of the sack? I've given this a lot of thought and I'm positive it would work.

 

[evilbob]

Since I pretty much answered my first question in another thread...

Any takers on the second question? Vamps = 1 coffin or whatever coffin? Rebuilding a coffin? Thoughts?

 

[Infiniti2000]

A vampire "must reach its coffin home". I don't think there's much argument possible over the meaning of this. It can't be any coffin anymore than you could consider any house out there your home. We're not just talking about a place where you might crash for the night, like a hotel, but your home.

However, a destroyed home could still arguably called your home, so the amount of destruction on the coffin could be relevant. Since you haven't mentioned just plain stealing the coffin (and its contents) or relocating it beyond the maximum distance the vampire could travel, then I presume that the component parts of the coffin might still be present. I could see that the pile of remaining dirt and pieces of broken wood from the coffin could still be called a home. I'm not sure I would rule it that way, but it's not unreasonable.

Does that help?

 

[eamon]

A vampire "must reach its coffin home". I don't think there's much argument possible over the meaning of this. It can't be any coffin anymore than you could consider any house out there your home. We're not just talking about a place where you might crash for the night, like a hotel, but your home.

Ah, but can a vampire have a home-away-from-home... say, a vacation home?

 

[evilbob]

Oh, the new FAQ was sooooo close to answering the questions in this thread - but still it was not definitive.

I still think my own answer to question 1 is good, but as for the coffin home bit:

Infiniti2000: Actually, as cheeky as eamon's comment is, it does raise a point: how does one determine if a vampire has only one "home?" Can a vampire have multiple "homes?" If so: wouldn't every vampire?

But even granting the assumption that a vampire may only have one home, your response about "is it destroyed enough" still raises questions. How much damage is required to destroy a coffin? How "messed up" does it need to be to no longer be considered useful? Considering that a vampire will be in gaseous form when he needs it most, I'm guessing even a small amount of disturbance would be pretty sufficent, since the vampire will be unable to move even a little bit of dirt back together at that point...



Honestly, I think the best solution - barring someone else's rule interpretation - would be to adapt certain givens (house rules, if they need to be) and then go with them. The vampire description in the MM says they are "forever anchored to their coffins and the unholy earth of their graves." So we'll work with that. (Note: the rest of this post is basically a house rule, so if you're uninterested, just skip it.)

First, let's say all vampires have only one home. They are tied to the unholy dirt of their grave, so it's probably safe to say this isn't something that can exist in multiple locations. Second, let's say that the coffin takes normal damage for an object of its type (wooden, brass, adamantine, etc.). Third, let's say that once a coffin is destroyed, it takes a full-round action to "disperse" the pieces (and associated dirt) well enough so that a vampire in gaseous form cannot gain the benefit of fast healing from them. (This fits well with the fact that you'd need to take a full-round action - coup-de-grace - to finish off a helpless vampire -in- its coffin.) Alternately, we could say that a consecrate spell (or maybe hallow) could be used to "holy" the dirt enough to make it unsuitable for a vampire to regenerate - at least as long as the spell's duration.

The only question that remains - and this is seriously getting picky - would be how long would it take for a vampire without a coffin to make a new one his "home?" Or: can he even do it?

Let's say he can: otherwise this powerful templ- er, creature gets one more huge weakness that isn't specifically listed in the MM. So you can transfer your "home" to a new place, if desired.

Building a coffin is straightforward enough: there are crafting rules for that. But what about the dirt? It seems that only certain dirt will do (strengthening the idea that a vampire can have only one home) so let's say it would take at least a full-round action to "gather" enough dirt to fill/set a coffin on (your interpretation), and probably another full-round action to "settle" the dirt (either sprinkle it around or adjust the coffin appropriately). That means a vampire with a backup coffin (hey - you know you'd do it) would need at least two full-round actions (plus enough move actions to get between them) to transfer "ownership" to a new coffin.

That seems fair enough and still favors those who are trying to destroy the vampire fairly well, while still staying within the general limits of the text.

 

[Random Axe]

Since I pretty much answered my first question in another thread...

Any takers on the second question? Vamps = 1 coffin or whatever coffin? Rebuilding a coffin? Thoughts?

When I ran a vampiric adventure last year, I decided that each of the vampires had a number of "home" coffins. The party came upon a central chamber with several coffins laid out in ceremonious decor (which they promptly and predictably destroyed), but each of the vampires had their own "backup" coffins skillfully hidden in various places around the rest of the lair (each protected by various pit/crossbow/brown mold/green slime/falling scythe traps). If any of the vampires were reduced to 0 hp, he could retreat to any of the hidden coffins to regenerate, and hopefully remain undiscovered for an hour. The vamps wouldn't worry about pit traps or other traps, because hello, gaseous form and no further damage.

I did rule that of the 10 "backup" coffins hidden around the lair, each of the vampires could only consider 2 or three of them as "his own" (ie vamp 1 couldn't retreat to vamp 2's coffin and get restored). But I could also easily rule that if there was only one vamp in the adventure, he wouldn't be limited to only one or two or three designated home coffins. Why NOT have several designated/dedicated regeneration coffins hidden around in spaces that can only be reached by gaseous form, and not by pesky PC intruders?

For Infiniti2000's point, I gave AC and hp stats to the coffins themselves, and made note that at least two sides of the coffin had to be effectively smashed, for the coffin to be considered "destroyed" for game purposes... However, even then, when it came to the game day itself, for sake of playing ease I just came to assume the PC's "took 20" when destroying the coffin and didn't bother rolling and counting hp damage to the sides, etc. However, this might have to be done if the PC's smashing the coffin were simultaneously being attached by minions or other nearby monsters, and time and effort became a factor.

Rebuilding a destroyed coffin? Nope. If a vamp is reduced to gaseous form and his final coffin is smashed, he is up the creek. No physical form possible because even if he does rematerialize (in another "home" coffin), he is helpless and immobile anyway.

Would one of his minions be able to "repair" a destoyed coffin? Well, that depends on how effectively intelligent the minion is. He certainly can't receive commands or directions or instructions from the master vamp, because hello, gaseous form. Would an intelligent and free-thinking minion decide on his own to repair a destroyed coffin that he discovers? (Which also begs the question, would there BE any more minions surviving after a PC party raids a vampire lair successfully enough to cut down the vamp itself?) Then that would depend on the crafting skill of the minion and his ability to do "effective" repairs within the time limit -- and that part is up to you again.

 

[evilbob]

Interesting take. I guess my thought process hinges on the language used in the vampire's descriptive text - which is by no means anything rules-worthy. It literally says that vampires are "forever anchored to their coffins and the unholy earth of their graves." Which I took to mean "each has only one" - but since both nouns are plural (vampires AND coffins), it could be valid either way.

If I were running the game you mentioned, I think I would just have each vampire protect his one coffin with traps, etc. - and then have a bunch of "fake" coffins out where people could get to them. That's basically the same effect, with a slight rule difference.

Also, when it comes to "building a new coffin home," I am thinking of this less like anyone could seriously build a whole coffin in a couple hours (crafting takes days and weeks), but more like a vampire could have given a dominated helper an instruction that's something like: in case my coffin is destroyed, gather up my grave dirt and take it to the extra (already built) coffin I have in location X. That should take care of the situation, but then it matters if you need to stop that helper as to how long things like that take, etc. And you've got a whole new set of rules to make up.

 

[Quartz]

I'm going to go with just one coffin and I'll cite the lich as my precedent. Having multiple coffins makes things very difficult indeed for adventurers. So destroy the coffin and the vampire is toast unless it can remake the coffin before having to assume gaseous form.

As for Disintegrate, you could argue that a vampire assuming gaseous form is disintegrating.