Two-handed fighting (not TWF)

[Mercule]

I've got a fighter in my group who uses a mercurial greatsword (required magic to even create). He does pretty well, but he's really starting to feel outclassed by the swashbuckler.

I think the major issue is that there are so many feats out there to boost the AC and damage output for light, dex-based fighters, but I'm not seeing anything beyond Power Attack for the two-handed fighter.

Any suggestions on optimizing the build of a tenth-level fighter? He does have a feat slot (Imp Sunder) that he's never used and I'd allow him to reslot, plus he hasn't picked his tenth-level bonus feat, yet.

 

[Enkhidu]

Power attack is one of the best feats around - after about 10th level. This is why:

- Power attack is unaffected by an immunity to critical hits
- Power attack only requires one hit to rack up the damage (not as dependent on full attacks)
- Power attack multiplies on a critical hit
- Two-handed weapon power attackers gain greater benefit from buffs that increase attack bonuses

If your fighter has not yet taken Improved Crit (Mercurual Greatsword), now is the time to do it. Also, Leaping Charge (Complete Warrior) might be a good feat to take (it triples the PA damage rather than doubles it for this build).

On top of all that, if your Fighter is a medium armor type of fighter instead of a heavy, Spring Attack does wonders when combined with PA.

 

[kenobi65]

Boy, I have to tell you, I'm stunned that this is an issue. IME, a fighter wielding a two-handed weapon has a damage output that just completely outshines any other melee build. If I may ask, what exactly does the Swashbuckler have that's moving him past the guy with a mercurial greatsword (a broken item, IMO)?

And, yes, you need to use Power Attack effectively, as Enkhidu notes. And, it's really important to get his Strength up as high as he can.

Did he take Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical? While Improved Sunder certainly can remove the bad guys' weapons...it also has a tendency to piss off the other PCs, when the fighter starts sundering their treasure.

In one of our home games, the PCs are at about 13th level. The fighter, with a greatsword, is just a murder machine.

 

[DanMcS]

I've got a fighter in my group who uses a mercurial greatsword (required magic to even create). He does pretty well, but he's really starting to feel outclassed by the swashbuckler.

I think the major issue is that there are so many feats out there to boost the AC and damage output for light, dex-based fighters, but I'm not seeing anything beyond Power Attack for the two-handed fighter.

Any suggestions on optimizing the build of a tenth-level fighter? He does have a feat slot (Imp Sunder) that he's never used and I'd allow him to reslot, plus he hasn't picked his tenth-level bonus feat, yet.

There are so many feats written to boost light fighters because the 3.5 change to power attack made them completely outclassed. A two-hander doesn't even need an exotic weapon to do it, a greatsword or greataxe will work just fine.

The weapon focus-specialization-improved critical feat set, as well as judicious power attack, puts a two-hander fighter ahead of just about everyone (except sometimes a barbarian) for melee damage. If he has enough fighter levels, he should probably take greater weapon focus, too.

Unless there's some nonstandard conditions going on, he shouldn't have trouble keeping up, damagewise. Everyone else should be trying to keep up with him. If his AC is falling low, see if he's got the magical items to help.

Does he just feel outclassed because he doesn't have special tricks? Light fighters often disarm, tumble, etc. Two-handers just hit hard, which might be getting boring for him.

 

[starwed]

Any suggestions on optimizing the build of a tenth-level fighter? He does have a feat slot (Imp Sunder) that he's never used and I'd allow him to reslot, plus he hasn't picked his tenth-level bonus feat, yet.

It would probably help to know the complete feat list. If you've already taken Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, you'd probably want to go and take Melee Weapon Mastery from the PHB2.

If the DM allows the Tome of Battle, you could take some manuevers as bonus feats. At 10th level, you could pick up a 3rd level maneuver, assuming you met the prereqs. (Iron Heart Surge might be a good one.)

 

[Mercule]

Okay, more details. I don't remember the whole feat list, but here's the important bits:

Fighter: Male Human, Fighter 10. 17 strength, 9 dex. Using mercurial greatsword +1. EWP, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Power Attack, Cleave, Imp Sunder.

Swashbuckler: Female Elf, Swash 6 + Elven Knight 4 (homebrew: adds bardish spells, immunity to charms, full BAB). 12 str, 20 dex (with gloves), 16 int. Using elven thinblade +1. EWP, Weapon Focus, Combat Expertise (from Swa), Dodge, Sense Weakness.

Variant rules that may be impacting things: Armor as DR (from UA). Class Defense (homebrew, +3 [lvl/3] for fighter, +1 [lvl/5 for each class] for elf).

The armor as DR combined with Sense Motive just made itself known as a really bad combo in this last session. Even without that, though, the Fighter has voiced frustration.

In looking at Iron Heroes, I'm tempted to offer up an Improve Power Attack feat that gives double the attack penalty as bonus damage for a one-handed weapon and triple the penalty for two-handed weapons. IH actually uses X2/X2.5, but that seems like oddball math to me. My main concern is that I don't want to see the power of the game spiral out of control.

 

[Malum]

Keyword "homebrew"

17 str at 10th level? Did you start out with a 15? I am assuming that was your highest stat?
If so the Elf had a higher stat in her main attribute from the get go. The Elf has a 20 dex, sounds like the Elf put his 4th and 8th level attribute bonuses + his elf +2 to his prime attribute, did you? Do you have a magical buff to str? I'm sure the Elf does with his given spells. Is your party buffing your str?

How is the AC comparison? I'm assuming your tanked out in full plate? Animated shield, ring of protections, + party buffs.

How is the Hit point comparison?

The 2 weapon fighter type has a - to hit.
Dex to hit str to damage, 12 str +1 no big woop

Did you look at Combat Brute feat? x3 PA damage? Imp crit? My god man you should be the parties smashmouth melee killer, hands down he should be 2nd to you.
A great Mercurial Blade two handed power attack and your complaining about damage?
In all of our campaigns the two handed wep. big guy has maxed out his str and as quickly as possible gets magical buffs.

Somethings amiss...

wee little Elf's and there fancy pants blades
Malum

 

[GilaMonster]

OK, let me try...

The elf should have 4 feats (character levels 1,3,6,9)
Swash doesn't grant expertise. As a 6th level swash, she has weapon finess, insiteful strike (int bonus to damage) and a +1 bonus to ref saves and AC (dodge bonus)
She should have an attack bonus of +17/+12, doing 1d8+5, crit on 18-20 x2
She's got an AC of 16 (+2 against a single attacker - dodge and the swash bonus)

The fighter should have 11 feats. 1 for being human, 6 from fighter, 4 from character levels.
With the greatsword he should have an attack bonus of +15/+10 doing 2d6+7, crit on 20 x4
He's got an AC of 12

So, she hits more often, does less damage and get hit less often. What DR do they have from the armour? He should be wearing heavier armour and hence taking less damage

A few suggestions:
Let the fighter find some str enhancing magic item and AC enhancing magic items. (and good armour if he doesn't have)
He takes Improved crit, improved weapon focus and some of the nice feats that are in PHB if you have it. (my copy's elsewhere right now)

HTH.

 

[Mercule]

Various replies:

The fighter started at a 16 str. He used 4th level point to buy con up. There are no clerics, so no buffing spells. The druid slots for summoning, damage, and healing.

Both the fighter and elf net out at one AC lower than they would under RAW (full plate +1 and chain shirt +1). The fighter has DR 4/- and the elf has DR 2/-.

We also use Weapon Groups (from UA), so the EWP for each character is basically free (neither one can use any blunt weapons well, but that doesn't put them on uneven ground). You're correct that Swashbuckler doesn't give Expertise. I meant Finesse. She has Expertise, also, though, so that is her full list of feats.

When they finish looting from their current encounter, the fighter will have gauntlets of ogre power, which is an par with the elf's gloves.

The fighter already has Imp Crit, which makes his range 19-20/x4 vs. the elf's 15-20 (keen sword).

The next step from PHB2 for the fighter requires lvl 12. Melee Weapon Mastery doesn't look like it does much, in itself. Am I missing something?

Hmm... I'm also thinking I need to run some numbers. The fighter did 104 damage on his singular crit last session. Meanwhile, the elf did 60ish total in a series of three successive crits. I'm thinking there may be more perception than reality, here.

 

[Beckett]

The next step from PHB2 for the fighter requires lvl 12. Melee Weapon Mastery doesn't look like it does much, in itself. Am I missing something?

Melee Weapon Mastery gives +2 to hit and damage with all of a type of weapon (slashing in this case). It evens his to hit bonus with the elf if Gilamonster's math is right, and gives him additional damage. If you have Weapon Specialization, it is one of the best feats to take at BAB +8.

But, yes, I'd say it's probably a matter of perception. The elf is critting all the time, for 2D8+10. The fighter crits much more rarely, but 8D6+28 counts for a lot more damage. I've got a scythe weilder in one of my games; he rarely crits, but when he does, the monster is probably dead.