Traveling to the Nine Hells

[Crust]

Hey, folks,

I'm preparing for my group's possible decent into the Nine Hells. I won't be running this for a good while if ever, and it might very well be the final module of this campaign.

Preferably, I'd like to start things in Avernus, eventually taking them along the River Styx to Stygia and into Malbolge for a bit (I'm augmenting Paladin in Hell, in short). I wanted to clear some things up about how they get there, and offer you folks the chance to give me some experienced feedback.

Plane shift will drop them right into Avernus, right?

Can I get away with them being forced into Avernus even if they try to use gate to start at a specific level? Couldn't one of the Lords of the Nine (perhaps Asmodeus himself) bar entry into the lower levels by thwarting gate (as is hinted at in the spell's description)?

They'll be hunting a captured NPC cleric (similar to Paladin in Hell, though not anywhere near identical), and I plan on housing her in a diabolical prison in Malbolge. They'll have to find Charon in Avernus, pay him, travel to Stygia, dive below waters and infiltrate Geryon's stronghold (as per Paladin in Hell), and move into Malbolge where the prison, and the tortured, mentally broken cleric, will be located.

I don't plan on giving them any direct information on the whereabouts of the cleric. A cryptic response to a legend lore or contact other plane might clue them into Hell's icy waters, and if that gives them any indication that their destination is Stygia, I want to start them in Avernus nonetheless. The most direct info I plan on giving them will come from NPC mentors suggesting that perhaps Charon the Boatman could "steer" them in the right direction (though making it very clear that a descent into Hell will most-certainly amount to suicide).

Honestly, I expect the campaign to end here in some horrible way. If they dilly-dally on Avernus, legions of spinagons, abishai, malebranche, advespa, etc. will converge on them (making heavy use of mob rules from DMGII), and if they don't move fast, a dread linnorm (MMII) will attack, and if that is killed, Tiamat herself will take the field attended by her great wyrm chromatic servants. That will be a TPK.

Fighting Geryon and Amon in Stygia might be a TPK.

Fighting through hordes of cornugons and pit fiends in the prison stronghold of Malbolge could be a TPK.

Any pointers, thoughts, or areas I'm going wrong?

 

[Dragonwriter]

Plane Shift would just dump them on Avernus, yes.

Asmodeus has incredible powers of control over Baator, so he could probably manipulate the Gate, if the PCs use one. So, he could force them onto Avernus if he wanted. Charon the Ferryman may be a bad choice to include (even if you are using the Greek Pantheon for your campaign) because he only takes souls to the Underworld. Mythologically speaking, the Greek Underworld was both Paradise and Torture, they were just in different areas. Think of Charon as more of guiding the dead souls to their place of judgement rather than just taking them to their punishment. I know he took the dead over the River Styx, but Styx received an unfair listing in D&D. Use a barbazu... They're the much more common "boatmen" except for specific agents of LE gods.

Also, are you using FC2? I would think so due to your reference to spinagons and abishai... If so, you must be re-working Geryon (I don't know if he's BoVD, since I don't have that, but he is a vestige in Tome of Magic) because Levistus replaced him as Stygia's Archduke. And Levistus can only be fought as an Aspect, unless something near-impossible happens to free him from the glacial prison he's in.

Having the mobs attack the party may not be the best idea. The devils wouldn't likely risk their existence by swarming a group of random people. Humanoids pass through Avernus on a rather regular basis. Having a large group of devils ask for their papers, though, could lead to an interested confrontation. But having Tiamat pop up and attack is kinda silly in my opinion. She doesn't really care what happens outside her piece of Avernus.

Also, Malbolge is a very creepy layer, but is it the right setting for a prison? Depending on how valuable the prisoner is (and who captured him/her/it) the prisoner would be placed in different places. Naturally, the most valuable/important would be housed in Nessus (good luck with that one!).

I'm not familiar with "Paladin in Hell" so some of this stuff doesn't mean anything to me. In any case, it looks to make for an interesting adventure/possible campaign ender.

 

[Crust]

Thanks for the feedback. I still want more, so if anyone has anything to add, I'm dying to hear from you.

Let me respond after each paragraph (I know it's a lot... I'm sorry, but you make some interesting points and raise more questions):

Plane Shift would just dump them on Avernus, yes.

Asmodeus has incredible powers of control over Baator, so he could probably manipulate the Gate, if the PCs use one. So, he could force them onto Avernus if he wanted. Charon the Ferryman may be a bad choice to include (even if you are using the Greek Pantheon for your campaign) because he only takes souls to the Underworld. Mythologically speaking, the Greek Underworld was both Paradise and Torture, they were just in different areas. Think of Charon as more of guiding the dead souls to their place of judgement rather than just taking them to their punishment. I know he took the dead over the River Styx, but Styx received an unfair listing in D&D. Use a barbazu... They're the much more common "boatmen" except for specific agents of LE gods.

Right. Charon is the name I might use for fluff reasons, but what I really mean is the marraenoloth from MMII, though the guys might make the connection to Charon from ancient myth. If they pay him enough and don't attack, I'd like to have him take them right to Stygia, though the yugoloth might ferry them right into the midst of a horde of gelugons.

Also, are you using FC2? I would think so due to your reference to spinagons and abishai... If so, you must be re-working Geryon (I don't know if he's BoVD, since I don't have that, but he is a vestige in Tome of Magic) because Levistus replaced him as Stygia's Archduke. And Levistus can only be fought as an Aspect, unless something near-impossible happens to free him from the glacial prison he's in.

I'm not using the Fiendish Codex, but I am using the MM, MMII, BoVD, Manual of the Planes, and the Monsters of Faerun book (for abishai in the latter case). I'm also using the Geryon build from EnWorld's Creature Catalogue (he's not in BoVD), but I'm reworking him as well, removing his ability to cast spells as a 20th level cleric and sorcerer, replacing feats, and I'm dropping his posted CR of 31 to about 25 or 26 depending on the PCs' levels when they try this. Amon also comes from the Creature Catalogue. I updated his feats and equipment, giving him a wolf-headed +6 large silver unholy icy blast warmace.

Having the mobs attack the party may not be the best idea. The devils wouldn't likely risk their existence by swarming a group of random people. Humanoids pass through Avernus on a rather regular basis. Having a large group of devils ask for their papers, though, could lead to an interested confrontation. But having Tiamat pop up and attack is kinda silly in my opinion. She doesn't really care what happens outside her piece of Avernus.

OK. This is my rationale (please bear with me): If you've ever read Ed Greenwood's Elminster in Hell (where Elminster is captured and tortured by an arch-devil named Nergal), there's a scene where Mystra, the goddess of magic in Faerun, descends upon Avernus in search of her most-beloved wizard, hollering, "Where is he? What have you done with him?" Hell itself becomes aroused, and in the midst of that mad chaos, as what appears to be the entire populace of Avernus converges on Mystra, one particular sentence reads: "In the heart of a million devils and more, Mystra glared and slew, glared and slew..." That's right: a million devils and more. The scene is absolutely unbelievable, with black clouds of devils throwing themselves at Mystra while pit fiends erupt from the very mountains and massive dragons and other unmentionable horrors are called into service. How it ends... well, read the novel. It's awesome to put it mildly.

That's part of my inspiration. Also, keep in mind that I'm using least and lesser devils here, so they can either attack the party or suffer the wrath of their superiors. Either way, they die. Forever.

Once the PCs enter Avernus, I suspect they'll go invisible and either fly across the landscape or teleport-hop from pinnacle to pinnacle in search of the Styx. However they move, a dread linnorm (MMII) will spot them as it lies baking in the blistering heat of Avernus. Due to its curiosity, it will use a Mord's disjunction on them, and as they plummet, the linnorm will try to drag one of them, preferably the wizard, to its side using telekinesis, hitting him with a dimensional anchor and a forcecage if possible. If the PCs avoid flashy spells and battle, the linnorm will try to geas one of the PCs and send them on a hopeless errand. I doubt they'll allow that. I suspect a massive battle will ensue, and once the PCs start hurling spells about, Hell will become aroused, distant horns will blare, and clouds of least and lesser devils will be spurred onward, leaping from distant mountains like swarms of bees, being whipped to the attack by malebranche captains.

If the PCs manage to slay the mighty linnorm, Tiamat will take notice, though not immediately. I don't plan on her just appearing out of nowhere. I'll let the PCs lay waste to the minor devils, thinking they're owning Hell, then I'll describe a colossal+ five-headed dragon winging toward them accompanied by a half-dozen massive dragons of various colors. Tiamat is broken down in the Manual of the Planes, and with other great wyrm dragons accompanying her, the PCs should see their doom. If they don't flee by then, then they deserve the TPK.

Long story short: if they wait around and try to hold their ground in Hell, they will most-definitely suffer a TPK. Various epic-level mentors will tell them this in no uncertain terms, insisting that the PCs are insane to assault Hell in any way.

Also, Malbolge is a very creepy layer, but is it the right setting for a prison? Depending on how valuable the prisoner is (and who captured him/her/it) the prisoner would be placed in different places. Naturally, the most valuable/important would be housed in Nessus (good luck with that one!).

I might have misspoke. The prison is located in the midpoint between Stygia and Malbolge. If the PCs move through the prison and exit the other end, they'll traverse a winding tunnel that goes on for miles, eventually exiting in Malbolge. Of course, if they dilly-dally there, they'll suffer a TPK. I want this to be fast-paced and deadly, and the only sight-seeing they do might be to witness a hamatula impaling a spinagon on a pike or a pit fiend gorging itself on larvae.

The NPC in question (a human female cleric of Selune) was captured and imprisoned by a 27 HD paeliryon devil (Fiend Folio) and placed here out of jealousy, thinking the NPC pompous, arrogant in her faith, and overly beautiful. She'll be tortured and maimed, acting as bait for the PCs, drawing them to Hell and certain torment and death. I'm not really interested in where. The module Paladin in Hell takes the PCs to Stygia and that waypoint between Stygia and Malbolge in search of a paladin's spirit, so I switched the spirit for the living NPC cleric.

I'm not familiar with "Paladin in Hell" so some of this stuff doesn't mean anything to me. In any case, it looks to make for an interesting adventure/possible campaign ender.

Well, you can purchase A Paladin in Hell in pdf form right here for only $4. I've always wanted to run it, and I only recently finagled things at the table so that it's now possible. I'm excited as hell (forgive the pun) to take the group to Hell and beat the tar out of them and maybe watch them lay waste to some devils, including Geryon, Amon, and other unique arch-devils I'm working on.

Thanks again! Keep the responses coming, please! Help me make this experience better for my players!

 

[Creeping Death]

The devels are more about subtlety. I think the millions of devils that swarmed her did so because she was a greater power. Mortals, who cares. If anything they are going to try and get the PC's to sign their souls over to them.

You can do some other things too. For a little information or help the PC's must participate in the Blood War for a short while. Then the PC's can take part in a daring raid on a place in Gehenna, the grey wastes, carceri, or even the abyss. They may have to assassinate a certain Pit Fiend so that a Gelugon can advance to his rank or something like that.

Some encounters on avernous would be various patrols of Baatezu, a small raiding parting made of of Tanar'ri, a baatezu army that passes close by (but not in the path, basically the PC's will have to hide a while until the army passes). The PC's can run into another adventuring group, some petitioners, or some other such threat.

There are ample opportunities for the PC's to help some devils in their job and thus gain an ally or some help. While the Baateezu are lawful, they still plot against their superiors and attempt coups and stuff like that. Look at Bel, he overthrew the Lord of the First and took her spot.

 

[Crust]

Thanks for the feedback, Creeping Death.

First, my group contains a number of exalted PCs (using feats and PrCs from The Book of Exalted Deeds). They'd never side with devils in any way, would never do their bidding willingly, and would never parley with them. I suspect it will be immediate battle as soon as any devils show themselves.

I also don't plan on getting the PCs involved in the politics of the Nine Hells. I want this experience to involve fire, screaming, images of torture and death, and alien creatures that have madness in their eyes and death on their minds. The only other adventuring groups they'll find are ones impaled on pikes or blackened by fire (which I might have to work in). No sight-seeing, no observances of the regular goings-on in Hell, no apparent resemblance to the Prime at all (conversations, exchanging of slaves or goods, peace in any measure, a safe place to rest, none of that). Explosions, lava, vast piles of larvae, and the ever-present knowledge that they'll be dead quick if they don't move.

I also don't plan on dragging this into other plot hooks. They're not going to participate in the Blood War. They won't do it willingly, and I don't plan on trying (or even succeeding) in compelling them magically. They'll be epic level by the time I spring this on them, which is also why I can see hordes of devils attacking them, trying to subdue them for various diabolical purposes, taking their magical items, etc. After all, they'll have a better chance against epic-level mortals than they did against a goddess of magic.

In all honesty, if they take the bait and try to move through Hell on a quest for an already-doomed NPC, I'll do my best to end the campaign with this module. I won't force a TPK by fiddling with the rules, but I won't pull punches at all (which I do very often).

Great ideas and feedback. Thanks!

 

[SolosAddie]

something to add, if i remember from Elminster in Hell, the various areas are 'claimed' by different powerful demons/devils.

They could receive some unexpected aid from a devil trying to get them into thier territory or snatch them away from someone elses.

I agree it would not be close to real help, more like jackals fighting over a carcass, but if they're lucky, it might save them in an encounter or two.

 

[taliesin15]

Not sure if you were planning something like this or not, but you might consider having some place, perhaps some entry portal in one of the Hells where it is literally a Bureaucratic Hell to get into. Long lines, strip searches, endless forms to fill out, etc.

 

[Crust]

Solosadie,

Now that's a great idea. I was planning on building maybe 5 or 6 unique arch-devils, and your idea might be a great way to use them. One arch-devil is unloading obscene levels of power on the group, and then a colossal devil-dragon drops out of the sky and rends the arch-devil to pieces, then insists the PCs serve it... which leads to another epic battle. Good stuff.

Taliesin,

Another great idea. I know I mentioned that I didn't want to introduce anything resembling the Prime, and that long line might be that, but I can see how the use of specific passwords and strip searches (full body cavity searches that might amount to the death of the one being searched) could have a very "Nazi Germany" feel to it. I like it.

Thanks, guys!

 

[akbearfoot]

It sounds to me like you want your PCs to experience a TPK?

Even if that is not the case, it sounds kind of anti-climactic to go all the way to Hell and not really get to experience anything...If they are all exalted and are basically hard-wired to attack anything they meet there, that makes it even harder. I personally don't see a problem with exalted characters working with/for devils if the end goal is a worthy cause, as long as they dont do evil things. Storming so and so's hideout and killing some devil in order to get information leading to a damsel in distress is perfectly doable in my head.

I don't really know the stats on a dread llinorm, but I thought they were basically flightless dragons, with less personality. I was under the impression that they were just as greedy as regular dragons. It's unbelievable to me that any dragon-like critter would ever cast a disjunction on a group of adventurers.

Then again, the only game I have ever played that disjunction wasn't outright banned in it was only ever used against artifact-like objects, and was heavily nerfed to be temporary.

 

[washout]

Yeah you are not really taking the opportunity to it's full potential here. If all you do is a full frontal assault then this is how it would turn out for sure, but there are so many devils that they wouldn't make it past the first layer if they do things that way. The only practical way to get any further is to bargain with favors or just get a guide of some sort. There are many who would profit just by shouting information from afar to the PC's on which direction they should take on the journey.

You are seriously underestimating the amount of infighting that goes on. The devils are all looking at each other for places to advance and be promoted so anything they can do to advance their own position is fair play to them. So even if they can just get the party down there to actually help free this cleric the "guide" (heck not even a devil could be another epic level mortal or demigod) may be able to gain power from that devils enemies and gain a better position or promotion.

Heck even a daemon may be willing to sell them information or advice since it knows that they will be fighting the devils. You can easily talk your way through the various areas, hell does not have to be instant attack and then a running battle. And even if a large battle springs up someone nearby is very likely to take notice and attack that force from behind seeing some advantage to be had in the further expansion of territory.

Also the gods are so far above even epic level PC's that it's not funny. Someone like tiamat wouldn't get involved unless they were in her territory. Leaving her own territory just invites attack, she may send a representative or an avatar though, or one may just be passing through. And those can be imbued with a great deal of individual power. If you read deities and demigods a bit and see what kinds of powers they weild there would be little reason for them to care about some epic level adventurers tromping through to the lower layers.


However if you really do just want a big running battle then why not run a short starter beforehand and make them all into demigods or lesser gods so that they are on an even keel with some of these powers and then they really would attract that kind of attention and be able to have fun and return it in kind. You could really expand it to a bigger scope and get it out of epic level territory. I can only imagine the fun that a fighter would have being able to at-will cast all of his domain spell picks against hordes of devils.