Transmute Rock to Mud: why "hip- or chest-deep"?

[azhrei_fje]

In the description of the transmute rock to mud spell is a clause that says the mud is 10-feet deep, but creatures only sink hip- or chest-deep in the mud. I need to understand this statement, since it sounds to me like a Medium-size creature sinks further than a Small-size creature. Why? Other descriptions, for example quicksand (link to the RSRD), require the creature to roll Swim checks or drown.

Any comments as to why the spell is written that way? Would I be remiss if I ruled that the creatures sink to the bottom of the mud?

 

[Taraxia]

In the description of the transmute rock to mud spell is a clause that says the mud is 10-feet deep, but creatures only sink hip- or chest-deep in the mud. I need to understand this statement, since it sounds to me like a Medium-size creature sinks further than a Small-size creature. Why? Other descriptions, for example quicksand (link to the RSRD), require the creature to roll Swim checks or drown.

Any comments as to why the spell is written that way? Would I be remiss if I ruled that the creatures sink to the bottom of the mud?

Because if it made quicksand, the spell would be overpowered, as it'd be an easy way to kill low-strength characters without the Swim skill. It's supposed to be an obstacle spell, not an instakill spell.

The mud, unlike quicksand, is relatively dense so that most ordinary creatures will be buoyant within it -- in fact, since it's semisolid you could say that it compresses under the volume of whatever's inside it, so humanoid-shaped creatures will generally squish it enough so they can stay "afloat" hip- or chest-deep.

 

[Land Outcast]

it sounds to me like a Medium-size creature sinks further than a Small-size creature. Why?

Buoyancy(sp) principle?

The more water/mud displaced, the greater the upward force exherted upon the [partially/totally] immersed body.

Smaller creatures weight less, therefore needing to displace less water to remain afloat.

 

[Corsair]

Speaking as someone who has actually waded through 10 foot deep mud with some regularity: This is actually a relatively accurate portrayal of mud. Obviously it also depends on the exact consistency of the mud, but it is good enough for a generic mud spell.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Thanks, all.

I hadn't considered the buoyancy issue. :\

I guess this isn't the spell I want for the 9th level NPC druid, then. Slowing down the party isn't good enough. I suppose I'll start another thread to cover other options.

Thanks again!

 

[Notmousse]

Since it's already been pointed out that people tend to 'float' in mud I'd like to point out that it's also somewhat true of quicksand. It's not the initial sinking that gets you, but the thrashing around and getting yourself stuck deeper into the sand.

However, I'd rule that unusually dense creatures (most constructs, the semi construct warforged, and people with spells like ironskin working) may in fact sink to the bottom.

 

[Jack Simth]

Thanks, all.

I hadn't considered the buoyancy issue. :\

I guess this isn't the spell I want for the 9th level NPC druid, then. Slowing down the party isn't good enough. I suppose I'll start another thread to cover other options.

Thanks again!

Oh, it can be; hit the roof of the cavern they're in, and it deals 8d6 reflex half bludgeoning damage to everyone caught underneath - nothing to sneeze at at 9th; follow it up with a Dispel Magic (or Transmute Mud to Rock) and there's a nifty; they're stuck in stone. Golfing time!

Hmm.... where did it list the strength check for breaking out of solid stone.....

 

[Land Outcast]

Hmm.... where did it list the strength check for breaking out of solid stone.....

Done it,
was Evil,
was Fun.

Rock to mud I found to be a highly lethal spell, when coupled with dispell.

Plus: people don't drown in quicksand, most of the time the friction of their bodies with the sand (compressing it more, reducing its fluidity) makes them get stuck waist-chest deep, of course, to be able to pull out of quicksand is approximately as difficult as dragging a small car. People didn't drown in quicksand, they drowned when high tide arrived.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Just out of curiousity, why does everyone assume that a dispel magic cast on transmute rock to mud will result in people being trapped in stone? The spell doesn't state that effect. Maybe with transmute mud to rock, but there doesn't seem to be anything to indicate that you become trapped in stone with dispel magic.

One could argue that people who were trapped in the mud get shunted out. There are several spells where that occurs.

 

[Jack Simth]

Just out of curiousity, why does everyone assume that a dispel magic cast on transmute rock to mud will result in people being trapped in stone? The spell doesn't state that effect. Maybe with transmute mud to rock, but there doesn't seem to be anything to indicate that you become trapped in stone with dispel magic.

One could argue that people who were trapped in the mud get shunted out. There are several spells where that occurs.

There are several spells where that occurs... but those spells call it out. Further, there's no particular reason for them to get shunted out - the rock doesn't move into the volume they occupy - as the spell notes that Dispel Magic doesn't restore the form of the rock, just it's substance: "The mud remains until a successful dispel magic or transmute mud to rock spell restores its substance—but not necessarily its form."

So many then go by the counterpart spell, Transmute Mud to Rock: "Any creature in the mud is allowed a Reflex save to escape before the area is hardened to stone." which will leave a lot of people stuck.