D&D 5E Toxicity in the Fandom

[James Gasik]

Ever since I came to ENWorld full time, I've been kind of isolated from a certain segment of the fandom. Sure, ENWorld has posters who will insist, til their dying breath, that their way is superior, and yours is inferior, but if you post long enough, you notice there's as much you agree on as disagree. And the few really bad apples get pruned fast by the staff, which is also nice.

For reasons I'm not even clear about these days, I check my Facebook every day. There's a few friends that I don't have better ways to contact, I guess, and every so often a funny meme might get posted worth a chuckle.

But today I noticed one of my friends had made a comment about the new D&D movie. And I quickly found a nest of vipers.

You might be like, "well, duh James, it's a D&D movie, we all know it's going to be bad". And that's true (though I vaguely recall thinking the second one wasn't too awful, even if I only really remember the lady fighter, the thief with his "guild secrets", and I think a female wizard who teleported her arm into a solid wall, and the surprise villain being...the henchman from the first movie).

But that wasn't what the vitriol was aimed at. Here we had posters decrying that the movie would bring in new people wanting to play "and ruin" the game. Heated debates about gatekeeping. People decrying how WotC has destroyed any semblance of good D&D. Hatred for 5e, 4e, and 3e. 5e "dumbed down the game for (derogative word referring to intelligence I won't repeat, obviously") and promotes "forcing your will on other sentient creatures and having intercourse with dragons".

As well as the usual Matt Mercer hate. 4e turned the game into a video game, 3e destroyed game balance with Pun Pun builds (which were "everywhere", apparently). The usual stuff.

But the more I read, the uglier it got. Growing up in the 80's and early 90's, I always felt that, even if we disagreed, people in the D&D fandom, being nerds and geeks, and poorly understood by the "norms", were kind of in this together.

Oh sure we argue with each other- it's the nature of fandom! Can Superman beat Thor? Can my 17th level Fighter with haste and a Vorpal Sword kill Strahd? Should wish always be twisted in an attempt to mock the caster?

You know what I mean.

But over time, I got the sense that the game was evolving, as people's attitudes did. We don't snicker and laugh at the poor guy who puts on a girdle of femininity/masculinity, or jams on a helmet that makes them into the complete moral opposite of who they once were. In fact, we're willing to accept that such things have moral implications, and maybe that gender isn't a binary.

We try to welcome people to the game that never would have wanted to play in the old days- or may have been turned off by us hissing at them when they approached. I myself still have a reflex to not want to discuss the hobby with people who aren't "in", because I still remember being bullied and ridiculed over it, decades later. If someone says "hey what's that game you're playing", I used to have to force myself to engage socially. Now I wear my D&D shirts openly, lol, because more often than not, people will be like "oh yeah, that's that game in Stranger Things, I love that show!".

But seeing this made me sad. We're not a unified fandom, not in the slightest. Hatred, toxic behavior, fear of the "other"- it's all still there. People wanting to gatekeep to preserve "their way of gaming".

Obviously, it's my fault for reading comments on Facebook, and maybe I shouldn't make that mistake again, but at the same time, it's because I'd isolated myself from people like that, that I had rose colored glasses with regards to the hobby.

I think I'd rather hang out with the Scarlet Brotherhood, some Red Wizards, or Vecna cultists. They seem like more reasonable folk.

 

[Hussar]

I feel you.

I find fandom, pretty much any fandom, just so tiring anymore. I almost refuse to read articles about movies coming out, or book reviews other than the most high level stuff. I'm just so sick and tired of the unceasing, never ending, stomach turning negativity that people spout about a hobby.

If you don't like something, that's FANTASTIC. I love that you don't like it. Now, please go find something you do like. Promote that. Be a cheerleader for things like. Tell me why I should like what you like, not why I should hate what you hate.

Ever since the whole 4e edition war garbage, I've just found D&D fandom so tiresome.

 

[SakanaSensei]

I hear you, my guy. Really, I do. As western culture in seems to have the cultural temperature rising, I've had to set hard limits on my own usage of the internet. Facebook got cut out years ago, and I've had to prune out Reddit this year as well. EnWorld is one of the last places I am still using online, but even watching the kind of discourse that comes out here, on a decently moderated forum, is enough to really put a damper on the spirits. Whether it's racial modifiers, available classes, rules interpretations, races available at the table, takes on lore being somehow deficient, one-true-wayism, "why won't WotC think about X" where X is literally anything from people who like B/X to people who want crunchier rules (sometimes both arguments come from the same posters, which is wild to me!)...

I've had to block a few people with who I would continuously get into disagreements or just really disliked the way they would argue about things with others. You know, the perpetually unhappy, for which everything done to the game in the past 25 years has just been the worst thing ever. And while it's helped a good amount, sometimes I think I might have to stop coming here too, because there's just SO MUCH negativity around this game, it seems.

 

[Morrus]

It’s definitely ugly out there! I feel like the same applies to most fandoms — Star Wars fandom has a lot of toxicity, and Tolkien fandom is currently showing an unpleasant side. I guess part of it is social media — it permits you to behave in ways you just never would anywhere else, and there are no real social consequences.

It’s one (not the only!) reason why I feel that moderated forums like this are important. It that here is perfect, but there is at least something holding back the worst excesses.

Of course, social media isn't all bad. It's equally good, and it when it gives voices to people who might not otherwise be heard, it's doing something wonderful.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Unfortunately, this is exactly the sort of thing Facebook wants. Because intense statements drive interaction. The more you interact, the more money they make. Refreshing to see new comments. Responding with outrage (or trying to calm the situation.) Getting drawn in like you're watching a trainwreck--don't want to stare, but you can't look away.

This is the problem of the modern internet mediasystem. It does not thrive on promoting content or discourse. It thrives on promoting outrage and shock. That's why clickbait and fake thumbnails are everywhere. Why incredibly dangerous "hacks" are totally fine on YouTube even though dangerous pranks aren't. Etc., etc., etc. Realistically, the hobby almost certainly has gotten better. We're certainly less misogynistic overall than we used to be. The problem is that the internet--and Facebook especially--magnifies and prioritizes the ends of the bell curve.

We are cognitively aware that there are ~330 million United States residents and approaching 8 billion humans overall. We cognitively understand that this means that the worst 0.01% of Americans are, by definition, ~33,000 people, a number large enough that most of us can't really imagine it as an actual standing group of people. But we do not intuitively understand that this must mean that, in a space driven by shock and outrage and extreme views (because those things generate interaction, which generates advertising money), that must mean that we will eventually run into one of those 33,000 people.

Instead, our intuitive understanding, which can only hold a few hundred people in it at maximum, sees this person being the absolute dirt worst, and we think "oh God, our community must be HORRIBLE if we have someone like THIS in it..." It's not. It never really has been. We are just, finally, having the dirty laundry exposed, the dirty laundry that was always there, we just couldn't see it because it was beyond our local experience horizon.

This is one of the paradoxes of modern growth. The very things which enable us to improve and make people-in-general better-educated and kinder are also the tools that force us to see just how bad humanity can get. We have to stand strong in our commitment, have to anchor our pride not in intuitions (which so readily deceive us) but in facts, which are often of little comfort, but far more durable.

There is more support, more love, more openness in our hobby than ever. As much as I may criticize 5e's rules, I recognize that it has put in legitimate effort, some of it (mildly) risky from a publishing standpoint, to improve inclusion. Those efforts have been far from perfect, but they are a tangible sign of change. You would not have seen recognition of transgender identities in 2000. They're canonical in 5e, and there was no massive fan revolt against it. That's progress, however small it might be.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I hear you, my guy. Really, I do. As western culture in seems to have the cultural temperature rising, I've had to set hard limits on my own usage of the internet. Facebook got cut out years ago, and I've had to prune out Reddit this year as well. EnWorld is one of the last places I am still using online, but even watching the kind of discourse that comes out here, on a decently moderated forum, is enough to really put a damper on the spirits. Whether it's racial modifiers, available classes, rules interpretations, races available at the table, takes on lore being somehow deficient, one-true-wayism, "why won't WotC think about X" where X is literally anything from people who like B/X to people who want crunchier rules (sometimes both arguments come from the same posters, which is wild to me!)...

I've had to block a few people with who I would continuously get into disagreements or just really disliked the way they would argue about things with others. You know, the perpetually unhappy, for which everything done to the game in the past 25 years has just been the worst thing ever. And while it's helped a good amount, sometimes I think I might have to stop coming here too, because there's just SO MUCH negativity around this game, it seems.

ah, you think it is a western problem, it infests the entire earth these days it depresses me.

if it is the complaining about say halfling we do that as more sparing than anything else, has helped my spelling massively.

honestly, I do not get the problem of hating the new if you still have all the old stuff so it is still buyable.
did people forget you can somewhat mould converts to anything over time as from my observations of the world they have?

It’s definitely ugly out there! I feel like the same applies to most fandoms — Star Wars fandom has a lot of toxicity, and Tolkien fandom is currently showing an unpleasant side. I guess part of it is social media — it permits you to behave in ways you just never would anywhere else, and there are no real social consequences.

It’s one (not the only!) reason why I feel that moderated forums like this are important. It that here is perfect, but there is at least something holding back the worst excesses.

Of course, social media isn't all bad. It's equally good, and it when it gives voices to people who might not otherwise be heard, it's doing something wonderful.

I hear that star wars got so bad they grow words for it.

 

[SakanaSensei]

ah, you think it is a western problem, it infests the entire earth these days it depresses me.

if it is the complaining about say halfling we do that as more sparing than anything else, has helped my spelling massively.

honestly, I do not get the problem of hating the new if you still have all the old stuff so it is still buyable.
did people forget you can somewhat mould converts to anything over time as from my observations of the world they have?


I hear that star wars got so bad they grow words for it.

I can’t pretend to understand anything beyond the two countries I’ve lived in (America and Japan), although the Anglosphere has a lot of mixing on the internet. I 100% notice a lot more volatility and hate on the English internet than I do over in Japan (which is also not perfect, but it is better).

 

[Mind of tempest]

I can’t pretend to understand anything beyond the two countries I’ve lived in (America and Japan), although the Anglosphere has a lot of mixing on the internet. I 100% notice a lot more volatility and hate on the English internet than I do over in Japan (which is also not perfect, but it is better).

the English internet is far bigger thus more people are terrible, add in japans cultural difference of being polite and not really talking about issues it would be less able, but I bet you it still happens and in more private setting it likely all comes out.

 

[teitan]

Communities have been growing more toxic on the internet over the last 6 years, give or take. I can’t even on the D&D Facebook groups and even left the Critical Role group. There was a hostility to it that was just shocking. The harassment in fan communities towards each other is a truly tragic thing. About the only community I am still on these days is ENworld as the disagreements are easier to walk away from and forget about.

I think we give too much air to people that are disagreeable and some forms of social media like Twitter and Facebook amplify their voices even when we’ve shut them down for ourselves with a block or ignore feature. They can spread disinfo and cause damage still. Some all too willingly.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Dont sweat it too much.

Hate consumes itself. They seem to be ''a lot of people'', but they are so isolated and disorganized that the only persons they can harm is themselves or another toxic person. They raise they tiny angry voice on the internet because most of the time they are unable to do so in real life because they isolated themselves by being a**-hats. Trying to stir some s**t up against a Fandom (even worst when its something that was actually positive to you!?) is the tiniest power grab a tiny person can ''hope'' to achieve; its kinda like those small creepy dogs trying to hump the leg of a tall person. Its sad and pathetic.

This is what I call the Smeagol Syndrom: after a time, they shrivel and start ranting they toxic gibbering to themselves, totally cut from the world.