Touch Attack and Flat-Footed ACs

[SableWyvern]

I have been unable to find any (complete) official ruling on what bonuses apply to AC in the case of touch attacks and flat-footedness.

The list below is what I intend to use; any comments would be most appreciated.

Bonuses applied to AC vs Touch Attacks:
Dodge, Haste, Luck, Profane, Sacred, Insight, Deflection, Size.

Bonuses applied to AC when Flat-Footed:
Armour, Enhancement, Luck, Natural Armour, Profane, Sacred, Deflection, Size.

 

[hong]

The easiest way to handle it is to keep track of which bonuses are NOT included for touch and flat-footed.

A defender against a touch attack loses armour and natural armour bonuses to AC, unless it comes from a force effect.

A flat-footed defender loses Dex and dodge bonuses to AC, unless they have uncanny dodge.

Everything else still counts, no matter what.

 

[MythandLore]

Yep.
What he said.

 

[SableWyvern]

The easiest way to handle it is to keep track of which bonuses are NOT included for touch and flat-footed.

A defender against a touch attack loses armour and natural armour bonuses to AC, unless it comes from a force effect.

A flat-footed defender loses Dex and dodge bonuses to AC, unless they have uncanny dodge.

Everything else still counts, no matter what.

Hmmm...

OK, a quick check indicates that, as the rules stand, you are correct.

So I'll turn this into a semi-House Rules thread, and point out that it seems against the spirit of flat-footedness to give Haste or Insight bonuses to a flat-footed character.

 

[Darklone]

So I'll turn this into a semi-House Rules thread, and point out that it seems against the spirit of flat-footedness to give Haste or Insight bonuses to a flat-footed character.

Haste gives a dodge bonus which you lose when flatfooted, no houserule there. Insight boni... That's weird. A monks insight bonus is explitely not lost when flatfooted.

You guys sure mage armour helps against touch attacks? Only against incorporeals... I see no reason why it should help against rays or something similar like shocking grasp or chill touch.

 

[hong]

Hmmm...

OK, a quick check indicates that, as the rules stand, you are correct.

So I'll turn this into a semi-House Rules thread, and point out that it seems against the spirit of flat-footedness to give Haste or Insight bonuses to a flat-footed character.

Silly person, "Sablewyvern" if that is your REAL NAME. Don't you know that this is the RULES forum, where all we have to go by are what's in the almighty RULEBOOKS, and if you want to engage your brain for any other purpose you really need to take it elsewhere. Like Venezuela, for instance.

Now that I've got that out of the way, I'll say that you're probably thinking of the flat-footed condition as being more severe than what it's really meant to represent. A person who's flat-footed isn't literally rooted to the spot; they can still dodge and evade attacks, they just can't do it as effectively. Note that an average character with 10 Dex has exactly the same flat-footed AC as his normal AC. If he was supposed to be a log, he would be getting a -5 penalty for 0 effective Dex, and possibly even grant a +4 bonus to his attacker's attack roll as an immobile target.

Because of that, I don't see any problem with haste or insight bonuses adding to flat-footed AC. These bonuses represent a character who's literally moving super-fast, or has a sixth-sense of where the attacks will come from. Both of these effects still work even when the defender is flat-footed, and thus the bonuses apply.

 

[MythandLore]

Silly person, "Sablewyvern" if that is your REAL NAME. Don't you know that this is the RULES forum, where all we have to go by are what's in the almighty RULEBOOKS, and if you want to engage your brain for any other purpose you really need to take it elsewhere. Like Venezuela, for instance.

LOL! OMG!
Why didn't you just call him, Silly Human of gosh sakes.
That was wild.

 

[hong]

LOL! OMG!
Why didn't you just call him, Silly Human of gosh sakes.

That would be boring.

I have also just been watching Roy and H.G. berate Jacques Rogge, head of the IOC, on the Ice Dream show here in Austria. I am dosed up on the angry pills as a result.

 

[Caliban]

The easiest way to handle it is to keep track of which bonuses are NOT included for touch and flat-footed.

A defender against a touch attack loses armour and natural armour bonuses to AC, unless it comes from a force effect.

Close, but normal touch attacks bypass armor from any source, even force effect.

Your thinking of Incorporeal touch attacks, which don't bypass armor bonuses from force effects.

A flat-footed defender loses Dex and dodge bonuses to AC, unless they have uncanny dodge.

Everything else still counts, no matter what.

Yup.

 

[rhammer2]

Haste gives a haste bonus, not a dodge bonus.

Haste gives a dodge bonus which you lose when flatfooted, no houserule there. Insight boni... That's weird. A monks insight bonus is explitely not lost when flatfooted.

You guys sure mage armour helps against touch attacks? Only against incorporeals... I see no reason why it should help against rays or something similar like shocking grasp or chill touch.