D&D 5E [ToA] Hex-crawling and Long Rests

[CapnZapp]

(Breaking out these ideas into a thread of its own)

We've discussed the exhaustion rules for trekking through the Chult jungles. And we've discussed how you crawl through one hex per game day (approximately).

To me this feels backwards. Or to put a positive spin on it, a great opportunity.

Problem: exhaustion isn't fun. A hero doesn't want to keep adventuring with more than one level, and even the first level seriously hampers his ability to function outside combat (including spotting ambushes et al).

Problem: having 0-2 random encounters per long rest brings zero challenge, which isn't fun.

Solution: how about denying the heroes the ability to take long rests in the majority of hexes, to better represent "jungle fatigue"?

This doesn't burden the PCs with penalities (like exhaustion), instead makes the game run as intended (you never know when you must press through half a dozen encounters before your next long rest).

Now, I have a few questions, some to people with the module.

How many hex types are there? (I'm assuming as a classic hex crawl, each hex isn't unique, but typed into perhaps six or seven types of terrain)

If each hex carries an equal risk of having 0, 1, and 2 random encounters, we should aim for an average of half the 6-8 encounters the DMG tells us the heroes can handle (assuming the module's list of random encounters isn't noticeably more deadly than in previous offerings). So that many days see 3 or 4 encounters, some see fewer and others see more.

As opposed to having the average set at 6-8 I mean. That's probably too harsh overall (but might work in a part of the map, especially dangerous)

This tells me that from a "good" hex (a perhaps a highland hex, where you can longrest safely) the next good hex should be 3 or 4 hexes away; there should be 2 "bad" hexes in-between.

"bad" hex = a hex where you can sleep, but without gaining the benefits of a long rest.

That's not one out of four hexes, by the way. One good hex is after all adjacent to six bad ones.

A rough guesstimate: that's one out of eight hexes, assuming uniform distribution. Since distribution probably isn't uniform, lower. However, if players are reasonably going to ask for Survival checks to move towards likely good hexes, not lower (because they are no longer striking out in an essentally random direction)

 

[CapnZapp]

And what about short rests?

If they can be had at will each time the party can stop for an hour, that's probably too good for shortresters, and too harsh on longresters like wizards and clerics.

Two suggestions:
1) each bad hex's sleepover gives the benefit of a short rest only. You don't do one-hour short-rests in the jungle at all. (Once you enter a dungeon, you leave the hex-crawl, and so rest times revert to normal)

2) each time you attempt a short rest, make that Constitution save, with disadvantage if you wore heavy armor or clothing at any point since the last rest. Failure = no rest for you.
2a) in addition, if you fail such a "rest check" when you have travelled at less than max hp, you gain one level of exhaustion. This simulates how you exert yourself by pressing on without adequate rest (not stopping to heal from that pesky goblin's measly 2 damage could cost you)

Not sure which will work best (for the game).

 

[CapnZapp]

Erm... Perhaps I'm the only one, but the map in question is available as a free download, so...

http://prints.mikeschley.com/p581848124/h956e8d5c

It appears not to be a distribution of various hex types, so perhaps the easiest solution is instead for rests being possible at the various sites on the map.

(Camps having been erected where rest is possible. This obviously doesn't go for native villages.)

Still, further study is needed to see if more rest hexes are needed. I notice the two layers of skull-and-bones, but it seems awfully harsh not to allow rests inside them.

And again, these zones doesn't include the rivers, where the party will travel first, so...

Do you think it's feasible to say that (long) rests aren't possible inside the larger "undead zone" (the black skulls)?

I originally thought even outside exploration could use rest restrictions but perhaps this is for the best? You could go on a "leisurely" treasure hunt in the surrounding mountains, for example, and just as long as any single individual encounter isn't overpowering, you're going to be able to rest just fine...?

 

[CapnZapp]

To be exact, I'm talking about these maps:


SPOILERS

(Note: while spoiler tags work on desktop and sblock tags work on mobile, or vice versa, there is no tag that protects spoilers on both browsers and the app, so I'm just going to warn old-school-style)













SPOILERS

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Not sure why I'd place cumbersome long rest requirements in Chult. There are plenty of people who live there who get a long rest every night, after all. Add in exhaustion options from travel and encumbrance, plus the possibility of encounters during a rest, plus environmentals like insects and it's already a tough location. Smart groups will likely figure out ways to be comfortable - Leomund's Tiny Hut springs immediately to mind.

To me the challenges will be things like navigation. The party will be keeping track of their location based on the Player Map but I will be keeping track based on my map, based on their navigation rolls. Barring a good Ranger in the group, it will be very likely that after a while the two will not match up...

Then there's food & water. I'll be tracking how the PCs are getting both. Since it rains every day, potable water should be easy to gather. Food will quickly spoil, however, unless stored in a protected manner (bag of holding or the like) - probably something like 10% a day after 5 days for typical rations. So they'll need to find ways to gather food - usually a full day activity with a somewhat high DC for success.

Disease will be an issue, too. Though a good cleric or druid in the party pretty much eliminates that worry with Lesser Restoration.

 

[CapnZapp]

Not sure why I'd place cumbersome long rest requirements in Chult. There are plenty of people who live there who get a long rest every night, after all. Add in exhaustion options from travel and encumbrance, plus the possibility of encounters during a rest, plus environmentals like insects and it's already a tough location. Smart groups will likely figure out ways to be comfortable - Leomund's Tiny Hut springs immediately to mind.

To me the challenges will be things like navigation. The party will be keeping track of their location based on the Player Map but I will be keeping track based on my map, based on their navigation rolls. Barring a good Ranger in the group, it will be very likely that after a while the two will not match up...

Then there's food & water. I'll be tracking how the PCs are getting both. Since it rains every day, potable water should be easy to gather. Food will quickly spoil, however, unless stored in a protected manner (bag of holding or the like) - probably something like 10% a day after 5 days for typical rations. So they'll need to find ways to gather food - usually a full day activity with a somewhat high DC for success.

Disease will be an issue, too. Though a good cleric or druid in the party pretty much eliminates that worry with Lesser Restoration.

This is about making the game of D&D work. Please discuss the realism issues elsewhere.


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[Warmaster Horus]

The game of D&D already works. The goal is to create fantastic environments for players to interact with, not weave together esoteric constructs to funnel them through. YMMV

 

[CapnZapp]

The game of D&D already works. The goal is to create fantastic environments for players to interact with, not weave together esoteric constructs to funnel them through. YMMV

If you believe that you have no use for this thread.

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[Sacrosanct]

Problem: exhaustion isn't fun. A hero doesn't want to keep adventuring with more than one level, and even the first level seriously hampers his ability to function outside combat (including spotting ambushes et al).

Problem: having 0-2 random encounters per long rest brings zero challenge, which isn't fun.

OK, firstly, what you define as fun is different from other people. That's just your opinion. You really need to stop with statements like the game is broken, or it's not fun, or whatever just because your personal tastes aren't met. We need to establish that this discussion is just your opinion and everyone else's opinion.

Secondly, you seem to be contradicting yourself here. That first sentence you're saying that the particular challenge of dealing with exhaustion isn't fun, then you immediately say it's not challenging. If exhaustion "seriously hampers the ability to function in combat", then by inference that means you don't need as many encounters per day because each encounter will be more challenging. It makes no sense to say that rule X makes combat more challenging and then immediately say there is no challenge.

Thirdly, not all challenges in the game are combat. Not all encounters are combat. There is so much to the game that is not combat, and it seems that you always ignore that, and try to shoehorn everything into a combat encounter context. If that's how you like to play, nothing wrong with that. But you need to understand that D&D is not designed that way, and there are 3 pillars, not just one, and each can have challenges to players.

Lots of people think rules like exhaustion and hex crawling are fun. My group certainly does, because it adds verisimilitude to the game. It sets the environment, and helps describe the setting. The flavor of the game. It offers many more challenges besides just figuring out max DPR. The players get drawn into the game world, and think about creative solutions for exploration and interaction. They love all that, rather than just going from one encounter to the next ad infinitum.

So no, I disagree with you that 0-2 encounters per long rest is not fun. It's all about how the game is taking place. Exploration has never been tied to the encounter guidelines. It's not about combat. It's about all those other things. You do realize that many people can go an entire D&D session without a single combat encounter and still have fun, right? Happens all the time.

This is about making the game of D&D work. Please discuss the realism issues elsewhere.


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Don't dictate to others what they can or cannot talk about, especially if it's on topic. For one, D&D does work. Even if it didn't, "making it work" for a lot of people absolutely includes adding elements of realism to how it impacts game play. Your opinions are not the One True Way, so you have no right to tell people what they can or can't talk about on a topic.


One final point. You've created and/or participated in a lot of threads on ToA recently about how this doesn't work, or that is broken, and how you need to change X, Y, and Z. But you haven't even seen the book yet. How about getting the actual book first and playing it before assuming it's all broken and trying to change everything?

 

[DEFCON 1]

This is a campaign where I think it might be good to do one important change to the game as far as rests are concerned... separate the regaining of spells and features that return on a long rest from the regaining of hit points and hit dice that return on a long rest.

This type of campaign will probably ask much of the spellcasting classes to use their "non-combat" spells quite often-- for protection, for searching for threats, for finding sustenance and safety etc. As a result, I personally don't think restricting their regaining of spells after a night's sleep is something I'd want to do. However... I agree with you [mention[CapnZapp[/mention] that in order to make the hexcrawl trekking and exploration into something important and substantial and deadly... the ability to heal wounds should be made more difficult. Especially if you are in the middle of a hot, sweaty, bug-infested, bacteria-filled jungle.

Thus, rather than using the same short rest / long rest paradigm for the regaining of hit dice and hit points that we'd use for character features, I might create a parallel "clean rest" / "protective rest" paradigm for regaining health. So in order to spend hit dice to regain hit points, it's not enough to just sit on your ass for one hour... you have to be in safe and clean location where you can be assured of having fresh water to clean wounds and hands, space and time to bind wounds quietly and effectively, dry off or change your sopping wet clothes and allow yourself actual time to rest your muscles-- perhaps even being able and required to take off your armor in order to do so because the heat otherwise wouldn't allow you to cool down. Doing this would actually become an added "encounter" a group would need to look for within any particular hex... finding a cave or clearing in the trees, or whatever place you can find where you can actually clean yourself up and relax for an hour or two. Not just regain your breath-- but RELAX. Because trekking through the infested jungle is different than taking an hour-long "short rest" on a road back home.

Then as far as regaining all your hit points and half your hit dice... you need to be able to spend at least 8 hours in a protective place. A place that isn't boiling hot, or that has so much clean water you can drink and drink and drink and not have to parcel out how much you intake like you would if you only had your waterskin. Perhaps you even need a padded bed or floor so that you can actually REST, and not just "sleep". Again, it's being able to relax completely-- both your body and your mind-- for night's good solid comfortable rest. A rest where you aren't on your guard at all times worrying about giant snakes dropping on you from above or checking to make sure insects haven't gotten into your gaping wounds. And usually, this would be either arriving at one of the established forts or camps in the jungle, or finding a deep cave system with fresh water that gets you out from the sun and heat. You find your way there, then at that point you can be allowed to regain all your health and most of your HD.

Making this split between character features and character health (and allowing for these rests to not necessarily be on the same timetable) would allow us greater freedom in creating what we feel the various hexes can allow for.