Pathfinder 1E Titan Mauler and Large Weapons

[koesherbacon]

I want to make sure I understand this feature of the Titan Mauler properly.

Jotungrip (Ex)

At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

Massive Weapons (Ex)

At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0).

If the Titan Mauler is adept at using inappropriately sized weapons, specifically using 2-Handed weapons in one hand, and they become more and more skilled at using these weapons, are they able to use a Large 2-Handed weapon in two hands while taking a -2 penalty once they are able to?

Or am I reading the rules incorrectly?

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

You are reading it incorrectly. The Large Sized 2-handed weapon according to RAW for you is a HUGE sized 2-handed weapon.

Weapon Size Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 non-proficiency penalty also applies.

​

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.


Basically it goes like this:
Jotungrip allows "appropriated sized" THW weapons meaning if you are medium you are allow to wield it "1 hand" as if it was a one handed type weapon with a penalty of -2, which if you couldn't do.

Massive Weapons allows "Inappropriate sized weapons" to be wielded in frame work you suffer a -2 for each size grade too large of equitable weapons example...a "Large Dagger" is a One Handed Weapon to you but you still suffer a -2 for its size it's not meant for your "size" if it's a large sized long sword you suffer a -4 cause technicality is it's a "large two handed weapon" but meant for a "large" character if you try to use a large sized great sword you take a -6 meaning the large size great sword is the finale.

Another example: huge sized dagger is a "Two Handed Weapon" meaning you take a -4 to wield it as such cause it's not a proper "weapon" it's not BUILT for your size it deals the "Large Size Dagger Damage" no matter what size grade you are....BUT this ability does not make them appropriate size for you, you negates penalties meaning JotunGrip still only applies to the "Two Handed Weapons of your Size Grade built for your SIZE GRADE"


Light = 2 sizes grade smaller
One Handed = 1 size grade greater
Two Handed = even size
Nothing goes past this line EVER


Smaller sized weapon also grade down so a Small sized Dagger is -2, a Tiny sized Dagger is -4, a Small size Long Sword is -2, Tiny sized Long Sword is -4, Small sized Great Sword is -2, Tiny sized Great Sword is -4.

Note there is nothing smaller than tiny but if you are a large sized character it would be a -6 as the weapon would be 3 grades smaller thus -6 if huge sized used a tiny sized it be a -8. The reason is because of hand size and handling too small of pummels/hilts or weight balances etc. the size of the weaponry itself compared to your own size category is what counts here.


Large Dagger = One handed for mediums with a -2 penalty
Huge Dagger = Two Handed weapon for mediums which is a -4 penalty

Large Long Sword = Two handed for mediums with a -2 penalty
Huge Long Sword = Unusable it's past the Two handed grade upon size up
Large Great Sword = Unusable


Bastard swords are a special case weapon they ONLY turn one handed if you are trained in them this is a special case they are Two Handed Weapons without the feat thus


No feat = unusable for a medium char using a large bastard sword

Feat = using this over sized weapon is -2 as Bastard swords turn into a "One Handed Weapon" and by RULES One Handed Weapons CAN be used two handed as the same of normal Two Handed Weapons while Light Weapons cannot but used 2 handed bonus

 

[Systole]

Titan Mauler as written is very badly done, in my opinion. As written, it basically says, "You can use a giant's butterknife as a longsword with fewer penalties than other characters." Which is terrible. Just terrible. What it should really say is, "You're a such a badass that you can dual-wield a pair of greataxes. BUTTKICKING FOR JUSTICE!" And that's how I houserule it. It works fine that way.

 

[Jester David]

It's the Amiri archetype. It's the "you can use the giant's longsword" class.

 

[brvheart]

Reminds me too much of monkey grip. When the player in 3.5 brought in a character with 2 large battleaxes I threw the feat and the player out of the game!

 

[Systole]

The way that Power Attack and strength bonuses work, at any level where you can effectively wield two greataxes, you're not that much better off than if you were wielding one greataxe in two hands -- and that's if you can full attack. If you can't full attack, you're gimping yourself quite a bit. At level 8 and a Strength of 22, for example, you're losing 6 points per hit assuming Power Attack just because 1h multipliers are 1x instead of 1.5x. And, you need to pay for two greataxes to be enchanted, rather than just one.

Really, here's a guy who took an archetype and allocated points into non-optimal barbarian stats so he could take TWF feats. The damage output is not broken, and he gets to play a fun character. Let him do it.

And Amiri is actually using a giant's bastard sword as a greatsword, I believe.

 

[brvheart]

I never did understand two weapon fighters. Double your attacks to get less damage and take a penalty to hit in the process. Go figure. And that is with IMPROVED Two weapon fighting.

 

[Jester David]

I never did understand two weapon fighters. Double your attacks to get less damage and take a penalty to hit in the process. Go figure. And that is with IMPROVED Two weapon fighting.

The math says otherwise. Attack rolls can be finicky with even odds of a 1 to a 20. 2d20s adds a bell curve to rolls. Assuming you need less than a 18 to hit rolling twice has better odds of landing a hit rather than no hits.
So two-weapon fighting means less maximum damage but higher minimum damage.

 

[brvheart]

Why would there be a bell curve? The odds of rolling each individual number are still 1in20 no matter how many dice you roll. It is only a bell curve if you were to add the dice which you are not. That is the statistical reality according to all of my stix classes, or is that the new fuzzy math they have been teaching? For each attack in twf you are decreasing your chances to hit by 10% and a (1d6+4) x 4 still will never equal 4d6+22. If you throw in power attack it is even a worse disparity. Now the chances to hit are the same and if the twf hits he is getting 4d6+40, both are more with weapon specialization. Now he is at 4d6+44! Give him furious focus and the power attack penalty goes away for the first attack.

 

[Systole]

The problems with TWF are as follows:

-You need a full attack to make TWF work. A guy with 2-hander is still effective if he has to move and attack.
-As soon as you run into damage reduction, you're twice as screwed as the guy with the 2-hander.
-You pay twice the upgrade costs as the guy who's only wielding one weapon.
-Ideally, TWF works well with Sneak Attack ... except Sneak Attack is generally useless for a variety of different reasons that I won't go into here.
-The light weapons that you're using in your OH can't be used with Power Attack.
-The TWF tree a feat sink.
-You're multi-ability dependent, since you need Dexterity for TWF pre-reqs (TWF rangers excluded).
-If you're using different MH/OH weapons, you have to spend twice the feats if you want Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization.

And most of that still applies if you're wielding greataxes instead of shortswords. The big difference is that your d12s are averaging an extra 3 damage per strike compared to a shortsword's d6. Perfectly acceptable in my book.