Tips on DM'ng high level campaigns.

[Arravis]

I thought we could share any tips on DM'ing high level (15+) campaigns.

Personally, I like to shift the challenges away from a Big Bad Guy, to more politics and long running plots. I change challenges from being a handful of bad guys with some local evil plot, to large organizations that can't be overcome by simply throwing spells and steel around.

Games don't always have to be large epics, they could be as simple as helping out lower level adventurers, dealing with local politics, building homes, etc...

So, what tips do you have?

 

[Dieter]

Well, to make the game any sort of challenge for the players, you're talking about some heavy duty opponents or a very intricate plotline.

At 15th level, most of the adventurers (if you're not taking into accound dwarven or [dare I say] elven longevity) are pretty much past their prime in life. At least that's the way I see it when I run my games.

If you're going for real-life equivalents of 15th level adventurers, you're looking at the high echelon of the military, ranking officers and grizzled old sergeants (like Sam Elliot's character in We were soldiers). These combatants are in the rear with the gear giving orders to the "lower level" fighters, they don't see much (if any) real combat. That's just the way it is. Experience, for lack of a better word, tempers your need for peril and danger. A 15th level wizard would most likely spend 99% of his time studying old tomes or consulting younger apprentices. A 15th level rogue would most likely be a high-ranking member of the local guild and have no need or desire to risk life and limb for a measely few hundred gp.

My point is that 15th level characters have better things to do besides gallivanting across the countryside looking for buried treasure.

 

[jollyninja]

when you are forced into combat, make sure you use enough opponents to challenge the characters. if you are the netheril setting, as i see you are by your other post. lev 15+ is not really that unusual (for wizards anyway) and you can still make them feel like a little f'ing worm on a big f'ing hook which is nice sometimes. I will ussume you have downloaded or own the netheril stuff previously published, FREE at WotC. if you have not it's in pdf form, it's not really that big of a file, i downloaded it before i got high speed. that should give you some ideas.

i agree that at the point where you have become "high level" combat loses it's old level of fun and the political aspects of roleplaying become the focus of the campaign.

i suppose that the best tip i can give is don't get mad if they trounce some opponents and allways let them know that there are bigger fish in the pond, there still have to be consequences to their actions.

 

[Falex]

I agree, it is possible to use mobs which are far stronger than a lvl 15. And true, you can go into the whole realm of "political" campaigns, which can inevitably become boring without a little action. But to some players, it would seem pointless to do meager things without a bigger picture. Most people will have that set mentality that in a strung-out political campaign, there is some almighty badass plotting the whole thing. Combat is inevitable if you want to maintain the extreme level of enjoyment. It will also depend on the campaign setting. Use the MotP, you'll find lotsa stuff in there which lvl 15+'s will have quite the rough time with. Just don't take your players to the level of unbeatableness and you'll be fine. Try and maintain some essence that they don't juts fly through levels.

The whole mini-campaign concept is nice for people who don't have much time to spend and just wanna play a few hours, but at 15+ your players are probably so used to the epic-concept that it just won't feel the same doing minor things. Generally, the things you are associating with the politics and what-not, are portions of epics that just so happen to have several minor quests. It's not a bad idea to take a break from a huge epic during a "slow" period and have them run off and deal with some minor things.

 

[Psion]

I am currently running a 13th-14th level group. From my experience:

If you want a meaningful combat, don't rely on single foes unless they are extremely well protected. High level parties can really lay the smack on a single foe, and it is quite likely that they will never get to act against a party that gets the drop on them.

Go for goals other than "slay the enemy." That gives you a lot more latitude when it comes to making challenging scenarios.

There is a lot to be said about strength in numbers. Don't be afraid to make an encounter overpowering if
1) the players absolutely don't have to finish the fight (frex, they can do a snatch and grab), or
2) the players are in a position to lay seige and weaken the enemy

My players decimated an extremely powerful elder vampire/werewolf in short order. But by the same token, they had an extremely difficult time extracting a priestess from a horde of ratmen, led by a corpulent ratman priest guarded by three ratmen blackgurds. As they were attempting to free the priestess, they noticed the dragon that had taken wing towards the fray. None of the opponents in that battle had a higher individual CR than the party, and individually would have been toast. But as a group, the party was capable of surviving their task, but not of defeating the enemies that had been laid out before them. And high level magic and rogue skills make such scenarios possible without making it a bloodbath.

Don't give the party any freebies when it comes to having the advantage of surprise. Play the enemy intelligently, use spies, guards, alarms, and warnings available to high level foes, and let them pre-cast any reasonable protections.

Give them some opponents to trounce... let them flex their muscles. But then, face them with some opponents that have the cure to whatever the party can throw at them. Teleport redirects, static screens, and so forth.

 

[Numion]

Just a few points:

1) Let them kick arse of inferior opponents every now and them. Makes the advancement worthwile. If all the combats difficult experiences, what's the point of gaining levels?

2) Fighter/Rogue/OotBI Drow Elves with Cloaks of Elvenkind. Surprise round should prove intresting even for higher level groups (I used a couple with their level 3 levels lower than the pcs; almost lethal)

 

[BluWolf]

I'm lousy at running high level fights.The party either whipes the floor with the opponent or they all end up dead. Just not enough practice I guess.

So I will avoid this subject.

I will through in some extraneous advice.

1) A nod to Dieter, use good time managment. Many of the actions the party wants to take or plot lines that need to develop take time. I suggest sitting down with your palyer's individually and determine what their charactes want to do as indivduals not as a group. Then map out a plot line including how long it will take.

Once you have done this with each of them go back and look at the individual storylines as a whole and see where you can find synergies and differences. I have done this a few times and you find your self being surpised sometimes where your story can go.

2) At these levels the party should have wealth dervied from something toher than GPs or cool gear. Land holdings, titles, economic vehicles, alliances, organizations.....These can become an integral part of the story. Especially if any of your PCs have cohorts and not just hirelings or followers.

I wil usually start introdcuing these concepts into the stroy around 10th level or so.

3) Make your bad guys grey. IME the baddies at the lower levels tend to be some pretty black and white villains. Depending on the style of the campaign they are all more less obviously evil people up to no good meant to die a justified death.

At the higher levesl try and introduce NPCs with opposing agendas. Not neccessarily evil but opposed to the PCs goals. Its easy for hte good cleric to smite the necromancer. Its a little harder for him to cast slay living on a good cavalier from an opposing kingdom.

4) Its not as lonely at the top as you might think. IMO, when PCs start gettin gto this elvel of the game they should definatley have some notoriety and not just amongst the dirt scratchers of the world. Other do gooders tend to start nocking on your door.

As most of the uni-dimensional bad guys start fading into the shadows at your approach their spots are usually quickly filled by either the downtrodden looking for help or goodly otherworld beings looking for allegiance or service.

If a PC dies at this level I will usually require a mandate or service for his return. With out being too jusgemental on all the dirt farmers, this PCs soul has some true value and the forces that hold dominion over it may require a little more than a few a'-fathers to get him back.
5) The higher they are the bigger the dent in the ground when they fall. taking a line from dear old Al "Vanity. Definately my favorite sin." This maybe a littel slanted towards clerics but it deosn't have to be. If you really want to start challenging high level PCs the only real place to do it is in the moral arena. Start throwing some moral dilemas at them and see how they do. If they start making some questionable calls attract the attention of a lower power that starts connving to take out a mortgage on a soul ot two.

6) another nod to Al, "Never let 'em see you coming."

 

[med stud]

An easy way to escape the raw power of a high level party is to cap magic at spells of level 5. That will remove the extremely powerful magic, and it would make the Fighters feel better then just bags of HP out to protect the mages.

Maybe it's just a lazy way of handling an otherwise exciting concept, but I felt it was much easier to control this way.

 

[buzzard]

An easy way to escape the raw power of a high level party is to cap magic at spells of level 5. That will remove the extremely powerful magic, and it would make the Fighters feel better then just bags of HP out to protect the mages.

Maybe it's just a lazy way of handling an otherwise exciting concept, but I felt it was much easier to control this way.

Are you playing the 3rd Ed that I'm playing?
The fighters in my group acquit themselves quite well in any combat, well past the point of being "bags of HP". The party is 13-14th lvl and the fighter can do truly obnoxious amounts of damage by that level. If the target doesn't have one heck of a good AC the three attacks in a round will quickly make mincemeat of most things.

I mean take the average attack at that level for a fighter:
assume reasonable magic items.
+26/+21/+16 for 2d6+12.
For a lousy AC target this is 57 points of damage per round. Then there are critical hits and whatnot. Also on that lousy AC target you can inflict up to another +14 in damage with power attack. Generally the folks in my game shoot for a power attack of 5 or so, so 72 damage for the round. If a target is within reach of the fighter, palladin, and barbarian in the party it does not live long.

Compare that to a 14th lvl delayed blast fireball which will do 49 average damage without a save. Disintegrate will likely be a made save and only do 35 damage. In fact at that level most things will have very good saves and/or good spell resistance. Not to mention immunities to various forms of damage spells. The wizzards in my party are often relegated into hoping the critter fails his will save for hold monster.

Buzzard

 

[Troll]

I am DMing a party that just made level 17. It's a clasic save the world epic with the ultimate goal of recovering the eye of odin. the very eye he gave up for knowledge. taking a lot of poetic licence with the story - Odin's knowledge of the future essentially set in stone the fate of the gods and the nine worlds. possession of the eye allows one to bend fate.

The current state of the adventure has them in the middle of a cold war between a group of assasins and an unholy order of clerics and blackguards that guard the way to the "fortress of storms". In said fortress is a powerful wizard currently in posession of the eye and bargaining with powerfull outsiders for its use. numerous other sub plots and politics are involved.

so in short, I mix high stakes politics with powerful and plentiful minions. the current arc has them reach level 20 just prior to the final assault on the tower. It's been a long campaign. the group started at level one the week after the PHB was released.

Troll