D&D 5E Tinkerer Class Review

[Zardnaar]

Whats in a name? Well this class is called the Tinkerer which has some negative connotations to me. This is because the class brings up memories of Tinker Gnomes from Dragonlance (and Spelljammer) that have been haunting the D&D game since the 80's. Ignoring that vibe I would expect some sort of crafting or tinker based class and this class at least lives up to that. A quick scan reveals the guts of the class, d8 hit dice, half caster, Constitution+ Intelligence saves, simple weapons and light and medium armour.

This class however even in a quick read has one glaring problem that stands out on a quick scan. The half casters we have in the game are the Paladin and Rangers and both of them are loaded with class features that deal more damage and they also gain multiple attacks at level 5 along with proficiency in martial weapons and heavy armour (well Paladin at least) along with a d10 hit dice.

There is only one archetype so far the Steam Knight and they do pick up martial weapons and armour at level 3. Level 1 and 2 don't look like much fun.Hopefully the other class abilities can redeem the class. Most 5E classes have a basic level of combat ability built in via cantrips, multiple attacks, class features etc the classes that are weak at this (wizards, land Druids, lore bards etc) tend to have full spell casting levels.

A major ability of the tinkerer class is the construction ability. Its an out of combat ability that ramps up the anaemic 5E construction rate that starts of at 5gp/hour and ramps up to 500gp/hour. A level 3 Tinkerer can knock out a sword in an hour for example, a level 20 one could build a Carrack in a couple of days or something like a Galleon in a couple of weeks. Think of this a a magical Leonardo Da Vinci's workshop I suppose a few low level ones could supply a cities armaments easy enough a master one with some help could rival the Arsenal of Venice for cranking out warships for example. Out of combat a bit broken in a way think of 3E fabricate abuse in a way. Obviously this class could fit on worlds such as Eberron and parts of Krynn and Mystara easily enough. Spelljammer could also handle it easily enough it doesn't really fit the vibe of Greyhawk, Darksun and similar worlds. The Realms is a maybe depending on the timeline but the Gondsmen of Lantan would be the obvious place. Well the class lives up to its name so that is a bonus.

So a quick preview of the class so far now its time to have a hard look at the Steam Knight the only archetype available. The basic tinker at level 1 and 2 picks up an additional skill (3+ back ground). You pick up the construct ability mentioned earlier, affect engines which is a magical trinket you can attach to your equipment and affect discharge which is basically a d6 smite ability of the paladin and you're a half caster so you get a single spell at level 2. And this is what I was referring to as a major problem of the class at level 1 and 2 you outright stink. You do not get a d10 hit dice, a combat style, cantrips, 1/3rd the daily spells of a full caster, no sneak attack and you only get a weakened version of the Paladin smite. So its basically the worst class in the game compared to the PHB. Its basically crap at everything combat, spells. You do get expertise roughly as good as a Rogue so in effect you are a Rogue with no sneak attack and a single daily spell you can smite (badly) with.

Your affect engine ability doesn't even seem to do anything at these levels yet. The engine when you create it at level 1 is elemental based (fire, cold or lightning) but you can't do much with it until level 3. Instead of extra attacks you get extra affect engines at level 5,11,17 At level 3 you can pick a subclass the Steam Knight.

The Steam Knight

At this point I think the tinkerer is trying to be a magical power armour type character (think Fallout 3/4 perhaps). So you pick up some martial abilities other classes get at level 1 (heavy armor, shields, martial weapons) and your attach engine can actually do something. You get martial armour and weapons. You still miss out on key things martial classes get (and earlier). You can now attach your engine to your armour and when you get hit you can inflict 1d4+ intelligence modifier damage to whoever hit you. You can also get thi elemental damage on a weapon you are using. So you now get a situational ability to deal damage that requires you to take pain and I think the intent is you are a front line warrior (with a d8 hit dice), a single attack that doesnt scale until level 15. Frome level 3 to 15 your basic damage is martial weapon+1d4+int + ability damage. Compare with a dual wielding fighter or Rogue and dual wielding is regarded as weak. You don't even compare that well to a Valor bard who is also a primary caster to boot. You get no other source of extra damage for a while but at level 5 you can craft another affect engine (with nothign to do with it), and at level 6 you can switch the elemental damage types. And you can insta craft trinkets worth 1gp. You can attach multiple engines to your armor and the dice scales up in damage (1d6 2 engines, 1d8 3 engines, 1d10 4 engines level 5/11/17).

What this means is by level 7 you are still dealing a single attack damage+ bonus damage with 1d6+int extra damage situational on you being hurt. A The Valor bard out performs this at level 6 and is a primary caster. I won't look at Ranger, paladin, Fighters and Rogues you are barely competitive with Clerics who do ot use any spells. You are still a half caster though with a neutered smite ability (level 6 Paladins get an aura derp). You are also worse than a bladesinger wizard who once again is a primary caster. At level 7 you gain some utility with your affect engine. Its OK at best at level 3 and 4 your next damage upgrade is level 15. Best case scenario is level 11 you deal martial weapon + 1d8+ int+ dex or strength damage plus 1d8+ int damage extra each time you get hit and you can smite as well using spell slots (1d6 vs the Paladins d8). The other half casters get 2 attacks, bonus dice of damage and multiple class features bumping up damage (colossus slayer, horde breaker, combat styles, etc).

From here out it is positively anaemic. Your next abilities kick in at level 10, 15 and 20 previous abilities you have scale at level 15. At this point I think it is just to late. Your level 10 ability is nice, +1 AC and resistance to an energy and you can use one of your engines on a suit of armor as a trap.

At level 15 out get an extra dice of damage on your affect engine ability. Assuming you are using a longsword you single attack is now dealing 3d8+ 10 (str/dex+int mod) plus an additional 2d8+5 each time you get hit. Level 17 you can upgrade 2 of the d8's to a d10. Put simply you're a fighting class that is crap at fighting and even several of the PHB gish classes can laugh at this (bladelocks). You might be semi competitive with a Valor bards and blade singers who are still full casters. Even worse the damage is also elemental damage. Not all classes are good at combat but the name "Steam Knight": and the lack of full spellcasting seems to indicate what this class should be about. Its crap at fighting and is a half caster so its not great at being a caster either and I'm not sure it outperforms a base ranger or paladin with no subclass. It also has the MAD problems the PHB Bladelock has.

I tried to like this class, it took me a week of thinking things over in how I would run the class and the best I could come up with was getting hold of green flame blade somehow and even then I think its marginal as you could just play a high elf mastermind rogue and get Green Flame Blade and have a character that does something. The class might work better in a very odd campaign where its crafting ability matter I suppose where building stuff in a hurry all the time matters. As written the class seems very very flawed I thought its higher level abilities might redeem it but over a week I have not figured out anything worthwhile to use the class for. Its a lot worse than the Beastmaster Ranger IMHO and that is the proverbial kicking ball class of the PHB. Out of 5 I have no real choice but to rate the class 1/5 or an F- or recommend it for NPC use on certain worlds. With the revisions to the early EN5ider classes in a Touch of Class this class might now be the worst EN5ider class. Of the 2 new classes the Gemini I think can function in its intended role and on the 1st pass through was the best designed one yet. The Tinkerer class needs to be tinkered with.

Pros. Its good at making stuff, has an OK spell list.
Cons. Everything else.

 

[Leuku1]

The Reviewer's Review Needs Tinkering

I am the author of the Tinkerer and can address your concerns.

In base class terms, the Tinkerer mixes mechanics from the Cleric, the Wizard, and the Paladin, especially with regard to its spellcasting and average damage output. One of my design goals for this class was to diverge from the typical Extra Attack at 5th level. I wanted a "slow", hard-hitting class that strikes with singular heavy blows. So I began the class design with a Cleric base, utilizing the Cleric's 8th level Divine Strike ability. However, I knew that the Cleric had fullcasting and level scaling cantrips to compensate for the slow weapon damage progression, so I needed to find a means to compensate. I also knew that I wanted my Tinkerer to be a halfcaster as opposed to a fullcaster. So I needed a significant way to improve the base class' average damage output while still fitting the theme of the slow heavy hitter. That's when the Paladin's Divine Smite came in. Of course, even that is not enough to bring the class damage to parity, so like both the Fighter and the Ranger, I also ensured that every Tinkerer subclass at 3rd level also contributed a significant means by which to add to average damage expectations, e.g. the Steam Knight's Affect Armor.

In losing fullcasting, cantrips, and Extra Attack, we gain elemental Divine Strike, Divine Smite, and significant average damage boosts from subclass levels.

However, I was careful to not allow for the potential to exceed the average damage output of Rangers and Paladins, because I knew that the Tinkerer's primary power lies elsewhere. I did what I needed to do to meet minimum average damage expectations, i.e. what is required to keep up in combat, because I wanted sufficient room for the class' primary mechanics: Construction and Affect Engines.

Something I hope you will bear in mind is that my original Tinkerer, including all 3 subclasses and full example list and guide for Power Appliances, was nearly 10000 characters. For this publication, I was required to reduce all of that to 6500, 4000~ of which you see in the Basic Tinkerer document. So in terms of things you can do with at early levels with Affect Engines and Construction a lot was lost in transition.

Construction was modeled after the UA Forge Cleric's Channel Divinity. I was very wary of the potential abuse of anything that lets you craft mundane objects at an accelerated rate. The most important limiting factor to observe is the fact that you must consume material of equivalent value, so there is a net-zero in raw value exchanged. You either need to buy the materials or find it yourself.

you're a half caster so you get a single spell at level 2.

The Tinkerer gets 6 1st level spells in their sparknotes, like a Wizard. They prepare the same number of spells Paladins do and add additional spells to their sparknotes at half the rate of Wizards, but also learn additional spells from their subclasses at half the rate of Paladins.

Like the Wizard, a Tinkerer's strength is its flexibility and access to options.

And this is what I was referring to as a major problem of the class at level 1 and 2 you outright stink. You do not get a d10 hit dice, a combat style, cantrips, 1/3rd the daily spells of a full caster, no sneak attack and you only get a weakened version of the Paladin smite.

You get a d8 hit die, no fighting style, no cantrips, 2/3rds the daily spells of a fullcaster (you do know that a fullcaster has 3 1st level slots at 2nd level while a halfcaster has 2 1st level slots?), no sneak attack (but also no Rage or Bardic Inspiration, Action Surge, and so on, but come on, what is the Tinkerer supposed to be, an entirely different class with its own set of strengths and weaknesses distinct from the other classes?) and in exchange you get

1. 1st level Wizard's spells known, 2. variant Expertise feature 3. Paladin # of prepared spells and 4. Elemental Smites with changeable damage types 5. that work with Ranged Attacks, 6. class-scaling accelerated crafting, and 7. the ability to combine mundane objects with Affect Engines to create entirely unique "magic items" limited only by your creativity and the number of engines you have access to. One of my goals with this class was for it to enable you to build rocket-propelled vehicles, which it does.

Its basically crap at everything combat, spells. You do get expertise roughly as good as a Rogue so in effect you are a Rogue with no sneak attack and a single daily spell you can smite (badly) with.

The Tinkerer is better at spells than any other halfcaster, able to learn spells like a Wizard.

In terms of average damage numbers at 1st and 2nd level, there is largely insignificant variance between a Fighter wielding a great sword and using a Fighting Style, a Rogue sneak-attacking with bow or rapier, a Wizard launching firebolts and the occasional burning hands, a Paladin occasionally smiting, and a Tinkerer occasionally Affect Striking. More importantly, the 1st two levels tend to be exceptionally quick, taking on average no more than three 2-4 hour sessions to reach 3rd level. No one is supposed to spend a lot of time at 1st and 2nd level.

Your affect engine ability doesn't even seem to do anything at these levels yet. The engine when you create it at level 1 is elemental based (fire, cold or lightning) but you can't do much with it until level 3. Instead of extra attacks you get extra affect engines at level 5,11,17 At level 3 you can pick a subclass the Steam Knight.

At 1st level, you can make Power Appliances , be it a power torch, an enhanced crowbar, anything that wouldn't require a spell slot to function. Though this is the curse of having to adhere to a strict word limit. Working with your DM to come up with new Power Appliances is something I strongly encourage and even expect. I wrote a guide on how to design and balance Power Appliances which obviously couldn't fit into the character limit. I'll post it here, though some aspects will be outdated due to the significant changes made to some Power Appliances as a result of trying to reduce their character count. GMBinder Link. Google Drive PDF Link.

At 2nd level, you can start Elemental Smiting as well as spend spell slots on stronger Power Appliances.

Extra Affect Engines at 5th, 11th, and 17th means stronger and more variable Power Appliances, from a magical home brewery to a rocket-propelled aircraft.

Average damage expectations are met through elemental smites, subclass features, and Cleric weapon damage scaling.

The Steam Knight

and your attach engine can actually do something.

Let's not forget **Power Appliances**.

You can also get thi elemental damage on a weapon you are using.

No you do not. Normally, to use your 2nd level Affect Discharge ability (i.e. elemental smite), you need to attach your engine to the weapon you are wielding. The Steam Knight's ability allows them to substitute that with the engine they have attached to their armor. This way they don't need two engines, 1 for their armor, 1 for their weapon. It is merely a quality-of-life blurb.

So you now get a situational ability to deal damage that requires you to take pain and I think the intent is you are a front line warrior (with a d8 hit dice),

The intent is that you're an off-tank, similar to that of a Cleric. You can take some punishment and dish the punishment back out, but you shouldn't stay for too long.

a single attack that doesnt scale until level 15.

It scales at 8th level and 14th level through Cleric-inspired weapon damage scaling.

Frome level 3 to 15 your basic damage is martial weapon+1d4+int + ability damage. Compare with a dual wielding fighter or Rogue and dual wielding is regarded as weak.

Why compare to a dual-wielding anybody? The Steam Knight does not grant a bonus action attack. It deals auto-damage to anyone who hits the Steam Knight at melee range. It triggers on every hit, so if a creature hits the Steam Knight 4 times in a round, the attacking creature takes 4d4 + 4xINT damage.

This is a feature I have long struggled with, as the day-long average damage expectancy is difficult to gauge on an ability that trades hits with auto-damage. I've even been mulling over a significant upgrade at 15th level, adding the ability to deal auto-damage to every creature of your choice within 5 feet of whenever you are hit by a melee attack. I'm awaiting En5ider playtesting to reveal the efficacy of the hit/auto-damage trade-off.

You get no other source of extra damage for a while

How many sources of extra damage do other halfcasters and subclasses get at levels higher than 5th? Rangers and Paladins both get something at 11th level, and that's it. Meanwhile, the Tinkerer gets something at 8th and 14th level.

but at level 5 you can craft another affect engine (with nothign to do with it),

You get Power Appliances. The primary in-and-out-of-combat capacity of a Tinkerer is in its Power Appliances. You can't gauge this class while ignoring it.

What this means is by level 7 you are still dealing a single attack damage+ bonus damage with 1d6+int extra damage situational on you being hurt. A The Valor bard out performs this at level 6 and is a primary caster.

Is "bonus damage" your way of hand-waving away elemental smites? Because smites are considerably the lion's share of the Paladin's average damage output. You get d6s instead of d8s because you can use ranged weapons and can choose between damage types. More importantly, a Valor Bard doesn't get a means of regular average damage boost at 3rd level. A Valor Bard can neither smite nor does it gain consistent additional damage at 3rd level and a Valor Bard's AC will be on average lower than a Steam Knight's.

Considering elemental smites and auto-damage to every melee attack per attack, it is unlikely for a Valor Bard to outperform the Steam Knight in terms of average damage numbers.

Its OK at best at level 3 and 4 your next damage upgrade is level 15.

Your next damage upgrade is at 8th. And then at 14th.

Best case scenario is level 11 you deal martial weapon + 1d8+ int+ dex or strength damage plus 1d8+ int damage extra each time you get hit and you can smite as well using spell slots (1d6 vs the Paladins d8). The other half casters get 2 attacks, bonus dice of damage and multiple class features bumping up damage (colossus slayer, horde breaker, combat styles, etc).

Several things to break down about the designs of the Ranger and Paladin.

Paladins do not get direct damage upgrades at 3rd level from their subclass because they have Smites.

Rangers do get direct damage upgrades at 3rd level from their subclass because they do not have Smites.

A Steam Knight gets both Smites and subclass damage upgrades at 3rd level because they do not get Extra Attack. They don't get 11th level damage upgrades like Ranger and Paladin do because they gain damage upgrades at 8th and 14th instead. Elemental smites are d6 instead of d8 because A) you can change the damage type, and B) you can use ranged weapons.

You're still not doing more damage than the Ranger or Paladin, because you are much more powerful than the Ranger and Paladin in the Interaction and Exploration pillars of the game through Construction and Power Appliances. And you could also ram a creature with a Rocket-powered Vehicle.

I hope that you can see that there is a lot more going for the Tinkerer than when you wrote your review. The average damage calculations meet basic expectations if you're capable of seeing the strength of an ability that deals automatic damage with no limit on the number of occurrences per round. A Ranger's Colossus Slayer is consistent, but it only works once per turn. The average value of a 1d4 + INT exceeds the average value of a 1d8, and has no limit on the frequency of occurrences per round. A monster could kill itself by attacking a Steam Knight.

More important than these damage calculations is the fact that the Tinkerer should not be judged solely as vehicle for damage output. A Monk does not stand out in terms of average damage among other martials, and it doesn't need to. It has other compensating strengths, namely maneuverability, disabling capacity, and circumvention of environmental and interactive limitations.

A Tinkerer's strengths is its interactivity and creativity. It enables you to build pseudo-magical-technological devices at a rate that is actually feasible in the average day to adventuring day campaign. I in fact had another 6th level feature that would let you craft during long rests while still gaining the benefits of a long rest for a number of consecutive days equal to a CON-mod based calculation, but that got stripped for merely character count restrictions.

There are many things that I question about your judgment, such as your assertion that a halfcaster has only 1 spell at 2nd level, which was not a simple typo due to you later asserting that a halfcaster at 2nd level has 1/3rd the spellcasting of a fullcaster. At 2nd level, a fullcaster has 3 1st level slots. A halfcaster has 2 1st level slots. There is a reason we call halfcasters "half". They have half the rate of a fullcaster's spellcasting, not 1/3rd.

You entirely missed or ignored Power Appliances and was completely unaware of your 6 1st level spells known at 2nd level and Wizard's method of learning additional spells, a set of features considered one of the Wizard's significant strengths. Compare this to the Ranger and most fullcasters, even the Bard, who are stuck at only knowing 2 to 4 spells when they gain spellcasting.

You judged a fish on its ability to climb a tree and compared that to a monkey's ability. And even then, the Tinkerer's ability to deal damage is not half bad. It does what it needs to do to be competent in combat. You frequently lamented how the Steam Knight gets a damage boost only at 3rd and then again at 15th, not mentioning the 8th and 14th level base class upgrades until you make damage calculations without comparisons.

You wrote

Assuming you are using a longsword you single attack is now dealing 3d8+ 10 (str/dex+int mod) plus an additional 2d8+5 each time you get hit

And then, instead of providing comparative numbers from another class/subclass, asserted "Put simply you're a fighting class that is crap at fighting".

Does 3d8+MOD + occasional 2-5d6 smite + 2d8+MOD auto-damage per enemy attack sound insufficient to you? Assuming you get hit once per round and you do not use any smites, a Steam Knight deals an average 32.5. A 15th level Rogue (rapier, 8d6 sneak attack - the average Rogue subclass does not provide a consistent form of improved average damage, including the Assassin whose Assassinate is too circumstantial and consequently infrequent to be considered consistent) meanwhile deals an average 37.5 damage. On a class that has a 180 gp/hr crafting rate, you are off by 5 points of average damage when not using a significant spell slot resource. You take more hits in a round, or you smite, you easily deal more average damage than the Rogue does. But that's OK, cause you're expending resources to do it, and you can craft at 180 gp/hr and build rocket-powered carriages. I suspect you did not do your due diligence in determining the actual comparative values of each class' average damage output.

For your assistance, I'll do both Paladin and Ranger as well.

15th level Paladin: 2 x (2d8+5+2), no smites = 32. Paladin subclasses do not grant consistent average damage bonuses. Additional adventuring day avg damage via all slots expended on smites = 4x2d8 + 3x3d8 +3x4d8 + 2x5d8 = 175.5.

15th level Ranger: 2 x (1d8+5+2) + 1d8(Colossus Slayer) + the occasional Whirlwind Attack? Difficult to judge Whirlwind Attack, no spell slots expended = 27.5 + whatever Whirlwind Attack is. It's supposed to be generally equivalent to the Fighter's 2nd Extra Attack, so let's say on avg it deals damage like Extra Attack. So 23.5 + (1d8+5+2) = 39. How well do we judge Hunter's Mark? It's a significant part of the Ranger's chassis, but requires concentration. For the benefit of the doubt, let's just add it to all attacks except Whirlwind Attack, cuz that requires you to target a different creature. So 39 + 2d6 = 46.

15 level Steam Knight: No spell slots, 32.5. Paladin has 32, Ranger has 39. All slots for smites = 4x2d6 + 3x3d6 + 3x4d6 + 2x5d6 = 136.5.

However, taking 1 hit per round is not as sustainable as Paladin and Ranger options, so the real numbers are going to be slightly lower, but in this theorycrafting space, the Steam Knight's 32.5 - X is relatively on par with the Paladin's 32 and the Ranger's 39/46, and average Smite damage is 136.5 vs 175.5, a respectable 39 point difference considering the Paladin is supposed to be the king of on-demand sudden spike damage, whereas the Tinkerer only needs enough to get by.

Suffice to say, if you actually do the math, the Steam Knight comes right underneath the Paladin and Ranger, capable of but not consistently exceeding them.

Not all classes are good at combat but the name "Steam Knight"

I do not differentiate between subclasses that are good at combat and subclasses that aren't. All of the subclasses I design are relatively equally capable in combat. Only the manner by which they approach combat differs. A Steam Knight tends to directly confront combat in melee. Other subclasses tend to not. I believe all classes and subclasses should be competent in combat. How they approach combat should be the difference seen.

I wrote a Guide to Balancing (and Judging the Balance of) Homebrew Classes. I hope it may be of assistance to you on your future reviewing endeavors.

 

[Zardnaar]

I am the author of the Tinkerer and can address your concerns.

In base class terms, the Tinkerer mixes mechanics from the Cleric, the Wizard, and the Paladin, especially with regard to its spellcasting and average damage output. One of my design goals for this class was to diverge from the typical Extra Attack at 5th level. I wanted a "slow", hard-hitting class that strikes with singular heavy blows. So I began the class design with a Cleric base, utilizing the Cleric's 8th level Divine Strike ability. However, I knew that the Cleric had fullcasting and level scaling cantrips to compensate for the slow weapon damage progression, so I needed to find a means to compensate. I also knew that I wanted my Tinkerer to be a halfcaster as opposed to a fullcaster. So I needed a significant way to improve the base class' average damage output while still fitting the theme of the slow heavy hitter. That's when the Paladin's Divine Smite came in. Of course, even that is not enough to bring the class damage to parity, so like both the Fighter and the Ranger, I also ensured that every Tinkerer subclass at 3rd level also contributed a significant means by which to add to average damage expectations, e.g. the Steam Knight's Affect Armor.

In losing fullcasting, cantrips, and Extra Attack, we gain elemental Divine Strike, Divine Smite, and significant average damage boosts from subclass levels.

However, I was careful to not allow for the potential to exceed the average damage output of Rangers and Paladins, because I knew that the Tinkerer's primary power lies elsewhere. I did what I needed to do to meet minimum average damage expectations, i.e. what is required to keep up in combat, because I wanted sufficient room for the class' primary mechanics: Construction and Affect Engines.

Something I hope you will bear in mind is that my original Tinkerer, including all 3 subclasses and full example list and guide for Power Appliances, was nearly 10000 characters. For this publication, I was required to reduce all of that to 6500, 4000~ of which you see in the Basic Tinkerer document. So in terms of things you can do with at early levels with Affect Engines and Construction a lot was lost in transition.

Construction was modeled after the UA Forge Cleric's Channel Divinity. I was very wary of the potential abuse of anything that lets you craft mundane objects at an accelerated rate. The most important limiting factor to observe is the fact that you must consume material of equivalent value, so there is a net-zero in raw value exchanged. You either need to buy the materials or find it yourself.



The Tinkerer gets 6 1st level spells in their sparknotes, like a Wizard. They prepare the same number of spells Paladins do and add additional spells to their sparknotes at half the rate of Wizards, but also learn additional spells from their subclasses at half the rate of Paladins.

Like the Wizard, a Tinkerer's strength is its flexibility and access to options.



You get a d8 hit die, no fighting style, no cantrips, 2/3rds the daily spells of a fullcaster (you do know that a fullcaster has 3 1st level slots at 2nd level while a halfcaster has 2 1st level slots?), no sneak attack (but also no Rage or Bardic Inspiration, Action Surge, and so on, but come on, what is the Tinkerer supposed to be, an entirely different class with its own set of strengths and weaknesses distinct from the other classes?) and in exchange you get

1. 1st level Wizard's spells known, 2. variant Expertise feature 3. Paladin # of prepared spells and 4. Elemental Smites with changeable damage types 5. that work with Ranged Attacks, 6. class-scaling accelerated crafting, and 7. the ability to combine mundane objects with Affect Engines to create entirely unique "magic items" limited only by your creativity and the number of engines you have access to. One of my goals with this class was for it to enable you to build rocket-propelled vehicles, which it does.



The Tinkerer is better at spells than any other halfcaster, able to learn spells like a Wizard.

In terms of average damage numbers at 1st and 2nd level, there is largely insignificant variance between a Fighter wielding a great sword and using a Fighting Style, a Rogue sneak-attacking with bow or rapier, a Wizard launching firebolts and the occasional burning hands, a Paladin occasionally smiting, and a Tinkerer occasionally Affect Striking. More importantly, the 1st two levels tend to be exceptionally quick, taking on average no more than three 2-4 hour sessions to reach 3rd level. No one is supposed to spend a lot of time at 1st and 2nd level.



At 1st level, you can make Power Appliances , be it a power torch, an enhanced crowbar, anything that wouldn't require a spell slot to function. Though this is the curse of having to adhere to a strict word limit. Working with your DM to come up with new Power Appliances is something I strongly encourage and even expect. I wrote a guide on how to design and balance Power Appliances which obviously couldn't fit into the character limit. I'll post it here, though some aspects will be outdated due to the significant changes made to some Power Appliances as a result of trying to reduce their character count. GMBinder Link. Google Drive PDF Link.

At 2nd level, you can start Elemental Smiting as well as spend spell slots on stronger Power Appliances.

Extra Affect Engines at 5th, 11th, and 17th means stronger and more variable Power Appliances, from a magical home brewery to a rocket-propelled aircraft.

Average damage expectations are met through elemental smites, subclass features, and Cleric weapon damage scaling.

The Steam Knight



Let's not forget **Power Appliances**.



No you do not. Normally, to use your 2nd level Affect Discharge ability (i.e. elemental smite), you need to attach your engine to the weapon you are wielding. The Steam Knight's ability allows them to substitute that with the engine they have attached to their armor. This way they don't need two engines, 1 for their armor, 1 for their weapon. It is merely a quality-of-life blurb.



The intent is that you're an off-tank, similar to that of a Cleric. You can take some punishment and dish the punishment back out, but you shouldn't stay for too long.



It scales at 8th level and 14th level through Cleric-inspired weapon damage scaling.



Why compare to a dual-wielding anybody? The Steam Knight does not grant a bonus action attack. It deals auto-damage to anyone who hits the Steam Knight at melee range. It triggers on every hit, so if a creature hits the Steam Knight 4 times in a round, the attacking creature takes 4d4 + 4xINT damage.

This is a feature I have long struggled with, as the day-long average damage expectancy is difficult to gauge on an ability that trades hits with auto-damage. I've even been mulling over a significant upgrade at 15th level, adding the ability to deal auto-damage to every creature of your choice within 5 feet of whenever you are hit by a melee attack. I'm awaiting En5ider playtesting to reveal the efficacy of the hit/auto-damage trade-off.



How many sources of extra damage do other halfcasters and subclasses get at levels higher than 5th? Rangers and Paladins both get something at 11th level, and that's it. Meanwhile, the Tinkerer gets something at 8th and 14th level.



You get Power Appliances. The primary in-and-out-of-combat capacity of a Tinkerer is in its Power Appliances. You can't gauge this class while ignoring it.



Is "bonus damage" your way of hand-waving away elemental smites? Because smites are considerably the lion's share of the Paladin's average damage output. You get d6s instead of d8s because you can use ranged weapons and can choose between damage types. More importantly, a Valor Bard doesn't get a means of regular average damage boost at 3rd level. A Valor Bard can neither smite nor does it gain consistent additional damage at 3rd level and a Valor Bard's AC will be on average lower than a Steam Knight's.

Considering elemental smites and auto-damage to every melee attack per attack, it is unlikely for a Valor Bard to outperform the Steam Knight in terms of average damage numbers.



Your next damage upgrade is at 8th. And then at 14th.



Several things to break down about the designs of the Ranger and Paladin.

Paladins do not get direct damage upgrades at 3rd level from their subclass because they have Smites.

Rangers do get direct damage upgrades at 3rd level from their subclass because they do not have Smites.

A Steam Knight gets both Smites and subclass damage upgrades at 3rd level because they do not get Extra Attack. They don't get 11th level damage upgrades like Ranger and Paladin do because they gain damage upgrades at 8th and 14th instead. Elemental smites are d6 instead of d8 because A) you can change the damage type, and B) you can use ranged weapons.

You're still not doing more damage than the Ranger or Paladin, because you are much more powerful than the Ranger and Paladin in the Interaction and Exploration pillars of the game through Construction and Power Appliances. And you could also ram a creature with a Rocket-powered Vehicle.

I hope that you can see that there is a lot more going for the Tinkerer than when you wrote your review. The average damage calculations meet basic expectations if you're capable of seeing the strength of an ability that deals automatic damage with no limit on the number of occurrences per round. A Ranger's Colossus Slayer is consistent, but it only works once per turn. The average value of a 1d4 + INT exceeds the average value of a 1d8, and has no limit on the frequency of occurrences per round. A monster could kill itself by attacking a Steam Knight.

More important than these damage calculations is the fact that the Tinkerer should not be judged solely as vehicle for damage output. A Monk does not stand out in terms of average damage among other martials, and it doesn't need to. It has other compensating strengths, namely maneuverability, disabling capacity, and circumvention of environmental and interactive limitations.

A Tinkerer's strengths is its interactivity and creativity. It enables you to build pseudo-magical-technological devices at a rate that is actually feasible in the average day to adventuring day campaign. I in fact had another 6th level feature that would let you craft during long rests while still gaining the benefits of a long rest for a number of consecutive days equal to a CON-mod based calculation, but that got stripped for merely character count restrictions.

There are many things that I question about your judgment, such as your assertion that a halfcaster has only 1 spell at 2nd level, which was not a simple typo due to you later asserting that a halfcaster at 2nd level has 1/3rd the spellcasting of a fullcaster. At 2nd level, a fullcaster has 3 1st level slots. A halfcaster has 2 1st level slots. There is a reason we call halfcasters "half". They have half the rate of a fullcaster's spellcasting, not 1/3rd.

You entirely missed or ignored Power Appliances and was completely unaware of your 6 1st level spells known at 2nd level and Wizard's method of learning additional spells, a set of features considered one of the Wizard's significant strengths. Compare this to the Ranger and most fullcasters, even the Bard, who are stuck at only knowing 2 to 4 spells when they gain spellcasting.

You judged a fish on its ability to climb a tree and compared that to a monkey's ability. And even then, the Tinkerer's ability to deal damage is not half bad. It does what it needs to do to be competent in combat. You frequently lamented how the Steam Knight gets a damage boost only at 3rd and then again at 15th, not mentioning the 8th and 14th level base class upgrades until you make damage calculations without comparisons.

You wrote



And then, instead of providing comparative numbers from another class/subclass, asserted "Put simply you're a fighting class that is crap at fighting".

Does 3d8+MOD + occasional 2-5d6 smite + 2d8+MOD auto-damage per enemy attack sound insufficient to you? Assuming you get hit once per round and you do not use any smites, a Steam Knight deals an average 32.5. A 15th level Rogue (rapier, 8d6 sneak attack - the average Rogue subclass does not provide a consistent form of improved average damage, including the Assassin whose Assassinate is too circumstantial and consequently infrequent to be considered consistent) meanwhile deals an average 37.5 damage. On a class that has a 180 gp/hr crafting rate, you are off by 5 points of average damage when not using a significant spell slot resource. You take more hits in a round, or you smite, you easily deal more average damage than the Rogue does. But that's OK, cause you're expending resources to do it, and you can craft at 180 gp/hr and build rocket-powered carriages. I suspect you did not do your due diligence in determining the actual comparative values of each class' average damage output.

For your assistance, I'll do both Paladin and Ranger as well.

15th level Paladin: 2 x (2d8+5+2), no smites = 32. Paladin subclasses do not grant consistent average damage bonuses. Additional adventuring day avg damage via all slots expended on smites = 4x2d8 + 3x3d8 +3x4d8 + 2x5d8 = 175.5.

15th level Ranger: 2 x (1d8+5+2) + 1d8(Colossus Slayer) + the occasional Whirlwind Attack? Difficult to judge Whirlwind Attack, no spell slots expended = 27.5 + whatever Whirlwind Attack is. It's supposed to be generally equivalent to the Fighter's 2nd Extra Attack, so let's say on avg it deals damage like Extra Attack. So 23.5 + (1d8+5+2) = 39. How well do we judge Hunter's Mark? It's a significant part of the Ranger's chassis, but requires concentration. For the benefit of the doubt, let's just add it to all attacks except Whirlwind Attack, cuz that requires you to target a different creature. So 39 + 2d6 = 46.

15 level Steam Knight: No spell slots, 32.5. Paladin has 32, Ranger has 39. All slots for smites = 4x2d6 + 3x3d6 + 3x4d6 + 2x5d6 = 136.5.

However, taking 1 hit per round is not as sustainable as Paladin and Ranger options, so the real numbers are going to be slightly lower, but in this theorycrafting space, the Steam Knight's 32.5 - X is relatively on par with the Paladin's 32 and the Ranger's 39/46, and average Smite damage is 136.5 vs 175.5, a respectable 39 point difference considering the Paladin is supposed to be the king of on-demand sudden spike damage, whereas the Tinkerer only needs enough to get by.

Suffice to say, if you actually do the math, the Steam Knight comes right underneath the Paladin and Ranger, capable of but not consistently exceeding them.



I do not differentiate between subclasses that are good at combat and subclasses that aren't. All of the subclasses I design are relatively equally capable in combat. Only the manner by which they approach combat differs. A Steam Knight tends to directly confront combat in melee. Other subclasses tend to not. I believe all classes and subclasses should be competent in combat. How they approach combat should be the difference seen.

I wrote a Guide to Balancing (and Judging the Balance of) Homebrew Classes. I hope it may be of assistance to you on your future reviewing endeavors.

The main point is its not as good at fighting as the other casters, and it not as good at spellcasting as a primary caster and its not good at skills either.

See the problem?

Clerics deal fairly meh damage unless you use spiritual guardians, so having an extra d8 at level 8 and 14 (or whatever) is not a good thing to compare to when you are a half caster. Clerics get it because they need more damage but they are a primary caster who can cast things like spiritual guardians.

 

[Mike Myler]

The Tinkerer introduces a different element of play to the game more effectively, I would argue, than the artificer. That's the goal of the class. I agree with Leuku that it can hold up in combat but its intent (like tinkerers in real life!) is not to blow people away or cut out hearts, its to enrich the world with new creations. Also rocket-powered things (which are dope). If you're out to do damage, I think a multiclassing into Tinkerer will suit you well, and that's where I think your critique maybe missed a beat: there's nothing stopping a tinkerer/paladin from double-smiting, which while ramping up resource expenditure vastly increases DPR. In a world without multiclassing maybe we'd be in a different spot!

Sorry you weren't down for the Tinkerer but fret not--there are more classes on the way and some of them are all about that damage. I worry slightly that the mahout might break you. We shall see soon enough!

 

[Zardnaar]

I am the author of the Tinkerer and can address your concerns.

In base class terms, the Tinkerer mixes mechanics from the Cleric, the Wizard, and the Paladin, especially with regard to its spellcasting and average damage output. One of my design goals for this class was to diverge from the typical Extra Attack at 5th level. I wanted a "slow", hard-hitting class that strikes with singular heavy blows. So I began the class design with a Cleric base, utilizing the Cleric's 8th level Divine Strike ability. However, I knew that the Cleric had fullcasting and level scaling cantrips to compensate for the slow weapon damage progression, so I needed to find a means to compensate. I also knew that I wanted my Tinkerer to be a halfcaster as opposed to a fullcaster. So I needed a significant way to improve the base class' average damage output while still fitting the theme of the slow heavy hitter. That's when the Paladin's Divine Smite came in. Of course, even that is not enough to bring the class damage to parity, so like both the Fighter and the Ranger, I also ensured that every Tinkerer subclass at 3rd level also contributed a significant means by which to add to average damage expectations, e.g. the Steam Knight's Affect Armor.

In losing fullcasting, cantrips, and Extra Attack, we gain elemental Divine Strike, Divine Smite, and significant average damage boosts from subclass levels.

However, I was careful to not allow for the potential to exceed the average damage output of Rangers and Paladins, because I knew that the Tinkerer's primary power lies elsewhere. I did what I needed to do to meet minimum average damage expectations, i.e. what is required to keep up in combat, because I wanted sufficient room for the class' primary mechanics: Construction and Affect Engines.

Something I hope you will bear in mind is that my original Tinkerer, including all 3 subclasses and full example list and guide for Power Appliances, was nearly 10000 characters. For this publication, I was required to reduce all of that to 6500, 4000~ of which you see in the Basic Tinkerer document. So in terms of things you can do with at early levels with Affect Engines and Construction a lot was lost in transition.

Construction was modeled after the UA Forge Cleric's Channel Divinity. I was very wary of the potential abuse of anything that lets you craft mundane objects at an accelerated rate. The most important limiting factor to observe is the fact that you must consume material of equivalent value, so there is a net-zero in raw value exchanged. You either need to buy the materials or find it yourself.



The Tinkerer gets 6 1st level spells in their sparknotes, like a Wizard. They prepare the same number of spells Paladins do and add additional spells to their sparknotes at half the rate of Wizards, but also learn additional spells from their subclasses at half the rate of Paladins.

Like the Wizard, a Tinkerer's strength is its flexibility and access to options.



You get a d8 hit die, no fighting style, no cantrips, 2/3rds the daily spells of a fullcaster (you do know that a fullcaster has 3 1st level slots at 2nd level while a halfcaster has 2 1st level slots?), no sneak attack (but also no Rage or Bardic Inspiration, Action Surge, and so on, but come on, what is the Tinkerer supposed to be, an entirely different class with its own set of strengths and weaknesses distinct from the other classes?) and in exchange you get

1. 1st level Wizard's spells known, 2. variant Expertise feature 3. Paladin # of prepared spells and 4. Elemental Smites with changeable damage types 5. that work with Ranged Attacks, 6. class-scaling accelerated crafting, and 7. the ability to combine mundane objects with Affect Engines to create entirely unique "magic items" limited only by your creativity and the number of engines you have access to. One of my goals with this class was for it to enable you to build rocket-propelled vehicles, which it does.



The Tinkerer is better at spells than any other halfcaster, able to learn spells like a Wizard.

In terms of average damage numbers at 1st and 2nd level, there is largely insignificant variance between a Fighter wielding a great sword and using a Fighting Style, a Rogue sneak-attacking with bow or rapier, a Wizard launching firebolts and the occasional burning hands, a Paladin occasionally smiting, and a Tinkerer occasionally Affect Striking. More importantly, the 1st two levels tend to be exceptionally quick, taking on average no more than three 2-4 hour sessions to reach 3rd level. No one is supposed to spend a lot of time at 1st and 2nd level.



At 1st level, you can make Power Appliances , be it a power torch, an enhanced crowbar, anything that wouldn't require a spell slot to function. Though this is the curse of having to adhere to a strict word limit. Working with your DM to come up with new Power Appliances is something I strongly encourage and even expect. I wrote a guide on how to design and balance Power Appliances which obviously couldn't fit into the character limit. I'll post it here, though some aspects will be outdated due to the significant changes made to some Power Appliances as a result of trying to reduce their character count. GMBinder Link. Google Drive PDF Link.

At 2nd level, you can start Elemental Smiting as well as spend spell slots on stronger Power Appliances.

Extra Affect Engines at 5th, 11th, and 17th means stronger and more variable Power Appliances, from a magical home brewery to a rocket-propelled aircraft.

Average damage expectations are met through elemental smites, subclass features, and Cleric weapon damage scaling.

The Steam Knight



Let's not forget **Power Appliances**.



No you do not. Normally, to use your 2nd level Affect Discharge ability (i.e. elemental smite), you need to attach your engine to the weapon you are wielding. The Steam Knight's ability allows them to substitute that with the engine they have attached to their armor. This way they don't need two engines, 1 for their armor, 1 for their weapon. It is merely a quality-of-life blurb.



The intent is that you're an off-tank, similar to that of a Cleric. You can take some punishment and dish the punishment back out, but you shouldn't stay for too long.



It scales at 8th level and 14th level through Cleric-inspired weapon damage scaling.



Why compare to a dual-wielding anybody? The Steam Knight does not grant a bonus action attack. It deals auto-damage to anyone who hits the Steam Knight at melee range. It triggers on every hit, so if a creature hits the Steam Knight 4 times in a round, the attacking creature takes 4d4 + 4xINT damage.

This is a feature I have long struggled with, as the day-long average damage expectancy is difficult to gauge on an ability that trades hits with auto-damage. I've even been mulling over a significant upgrade at 15th level, adding the ability to deal auto-damage to every creature of your choice within 5 feet of whenever you are hit by a melee attack. I'm awaiting En5ider playtesting to reveal the efficacy of the hit/auto-damage trade-off.



How many sources of extra damage do other halfcasters and subclasses get at levels higher than 5th? Rangers and Paladins both get something at 11th level, and that's it. Meanwhile, the Tinkerer gets something at 8th and 14th level.



You get Power Appliances. The primary in-and-out-of-combat capacity of a Tinkerer is in its Power Appliances. You can't gauge this class while ignoring it.



Is "bonus damage" your way of hand-waving away elemental smites? Because smites are considerably the lion's share of the Paladin's average damage output. You get d6s instead of d8s because you can use ranged weapons and can choose between damage types. More importantly, a Valor Bard doesn't get a means of regular average damage boost at 3rd level. A Valor Bard can neither smite nor does it gain consistent additional damage at 3rd level and a Valor Bard's AC will be on average lower than a Steam Knight's.

Considering elemental smites and auto-damage to every melee attack per attack, it is unlikely for a Valor Bard to outperform the Steam Knight in terms of average damage numbers.



Your next damage upgrade is at 8th. And then at 14th.



Several things to break down about the designs of the Ranger and Paladin.

Paladins do not get direct damage upgrades at 3rd level from their subclass because they have Smites.

Rangers do get direct damage upgrades at 3rd level from their subclass because they do not have Smites.

A Steam Knight gets both Smites and subclass damage upgrades at 3rd level because they do not get Extra Attack. They don't get 11th level damage upgrades like Ranger and Paladin do because they gain damage upgrades at 8th and 14th instead. Elemental smites are d6 instead of d8 because A) you can change the damage type, and B) you can use ranged weapons.

You're still not doing more damage than the Ranger or Paladin, because you are much more powerful than the Ranger and Paladin in the Interaction and Exploration pillars of the game through Construction and Power Appliances. And you could also ram a creature with a Rocket-powered Vehicle.

I hope that you can see that there is a lot more going for the Tinkerer than when you wrote your review. The average damage calculations meet basic expectations if you're capable of seeing the strength of an ability that deals automatic damage with no limit on the number of occurrences per round. A Ranger's Colossus Slayer is consistent, but it only works once per turn. The average value of a 1d4 + INT exceeds the average value of a 1d8, and has no limit on the frequency of occurrences per round. A monster could kill itself by attacking a Steam Knight.

More important than these damage calculations is the fact that the Tinkerer should not be judged solely as vehicle for damage output. A Monk does not stand out in terms of average damage among other martials, and it doesn't need to. It has other compensating strengths, namely maneuverability, disabling capacity, and circumvention of environmental and interactive limitations.

A Tinkerer's strengths is its interactivity and creativity. It enables you to build pseudo-magical-technological devices at a rate that is actually feasible in the average day to adventuring day campaign. I in fact had another 6th level feature that would let you craft during long rests while still gaining the benefits of a long rest for a number of consecutive days equal to a CON-mod based calculation, but that got stripped for merely character count restrictions.

There are many things that I question about your judgment, such as your assertion that a halfcaster has only 1 spell at 2nd level, which was not a simple typo due to you later asserting that a halfcaster at 2nd level has 1/3rd the spellcasting of a fullcaster. At 2nd level, a fullcaster has 3 1st level slots. A halfcaster has 2 1st level slots. There is a reason we call halfcasters "half". They have half the rate of a fullcaster's spellcasting, not 1/3rd.

You entirely missed or ignored Power Appliances and was completely unaware of your 6 1st level spells known at 2nd level and Wizard's method of learning additional spells, a set of features considered one of the Wizard's significant strengths. Compare this to the Ranger and most fullcasters, even the Bard, who are stuck at only knowing 2 to 4 spells when they gain spellcasting.

You judged a fish on its ability to climb a tree and compared that to a monkey's ability. And even then, the Tinkerer's ability to deal damage is not half bad. It does what it needs to do to be competent in combat. You frequently lamented how the Steam Knight gets a damage boost only at 3rd and then again at 15th, not mentioning the 8th and 14th level base class upgrades until you make damage calculations without comparisons.

You wrote



And then, instead of providing comparative numbers from another class/subclass, asserted "Put simply you're a fighting class that is crap at fighting".

Does 3d8+MOD + occasional 2-5d6 smite + 2d8+MOD auto-damage per enemy attack sound insufficient to you? Assuming you get hit once per round and you do not use any smites, a Steam Knight deals an average 32.5. A 15th level Rogue (rapier, 8d6 sneak attack - the average Rogue subclass does not provide a consistent form of improved average damage, including the Assassin whose Assassinate is too circumstantial and consequently infrequent to be considered consistent) meanwhile deals an average 37.5 damage. On a class that has a 180 gp/hr crafting rate, you are off by 5 points of average damage when not using a significant spell slot resource. You take more hits in a round, or you smite, you easily deal more average damage than the Rogue does. But that's OK, cause you're expending resources to do it, and you can craft at 180 gp/hr and build rocket-powered carriages. I suspect you did not do your due diligence in determining the actual comparative values of each class' average damage output.

For your assistance, I'll do both Paladin and Ranger as well.

15th level Paladin: 2 x (2d8+5+2), no smites = 32. Paladin subclasses do not grant consistent average damage bonuses. Additional adventuring day avg damage via all slots expended on smites = 4x2d8 + 3x3d8 +3x4d8 + 2x5d8 = 175.5.

15th level Ranger: 2 x (1d8+5+2) + 1d8(Colossus Slayer) + the occasional Whirlwind Attack? Difficult to judge Whirlwind Attack, no spell slots expended = 27.5 + whatever Whirlwind Attack is. It's supposed to be generally equivalent to the Fighter's 2nd Extra Attack, so let's say on avg it deals damage like Extra Attack. So 23.5 + (1d8+5+2) = 39. How well do we judge Hunter's Mark? It's a significant part of the Ranger's chassis, but requires concentration. For the benefit of the doubt, let's just add it to all attacks except Whirlwind Attack, cuz that requires you to target a different creature. So 39 + 2d6 = 46.

15 level Steam Knight: No spell slots, 32.5. Paladin has 32, Ranger has 39. All slots for smites = 4x2d6 + 3x3d6 + 3x4d6 + 2x5d6 = 136.5.

However, taking 1 hit per round is not as sustainable as Paladin and Ranger options, so the real numbers are going to be slightly lower, but in this theorycrafting space, the Steam Knight's 32.5 - X is relatively on par with the Paladin's 32 and the Ranger's 39/46, and average Smite damage is 136.5 vs 175.5, a respectable 39 point difference considering the Paladin is supposed to be the king of on-demand sudden spike damage, whereas the Tinkerer only needs enough to get by.

Suffice to say, if you actually do the math, the Steam Knight comes right underneath the Paladin and Ranger, capable of but not consistently exceeding them.



I do not differentiate between subclasses that are good at combat and subclasses that aren't. All of the subclasses I design are relatively equally capable in combat. Only the manner by which they approach combat differs. A Steam Knight tends to directly confront combat in melee. Other subclasses tend to not. I believe all classes and subclasses should be competent in combat. How they approach combat should be the difference seen.

I wrote a Guide to Balancing (and Judging the Balance of) Homebrew Classes. I hope it may be of assistance to you on your future reviewing endeavors.

It was a brain fart the 1 spell at level 2 thing.

All of the 5E classes have a basic level of combat ability, the ones that are not very good at combat are primary casters.

The Steam Knight gives up that combat ability for 3 power tools one of which is basically the light cantrip or you can buy a torch. Its "smites" do less damage than a Paladin.

When I was talking about damage boosts I should have clarified it. I meant significant damage boost like a second attack or third attack or something like a Rogues sneak attack or cantrip scaling etc.

An extra dice of damage once per round barley matters. Sure clerics get ti they also get level 9 spells and are a primary caster and they get to play with things like spiritual guardians.

Knowing a heap of spells is also semi irrelevant when you can't cast them die to lack of spell slots and a small spell list, although I suppose you could use rituals I suppose and that is kinda marginal. Its like having a fast car and no fuel for it or a new PC with a big hard drive you can only use for 1 hour a day or something.

If you make a half caster you are going to get compare to the Paladin or Ranger and a d10 if you are giving up their damage you have better be getting something damn good in return for it. That damn good doesn't have to be sheer damage but the steam knight gets a few toys and meh damage and less utility than the ranger.

For example a class could get a lot of utility, or it could get at will AoE damage that is low but consistent and can be enhanced via your spell slots. That is something other classes can't really do.

The reason I did not mention all the minor abilities is because they don't add up to much. You don't always have to be all about the damage but why would you take a Steam Knight over a basic Ranger with a reasonable amount of min/maxi (say no feats, sword and board, ASIs in the right places str or dex, use some decent spells). You would have more utility, more damage more our of combat stuff and the Ranger spells.

You are good at making toys and tools which is almost on par with a back ground power wise at least.

 

[Leuku1]

The main point is its not as good at fighting as the other casters, and it not as good at spellcasting as a primary caster and its not good at skills either.

See the problem?

Why are you comparing the Tinkerer to primary spell casters? This is a weapon-focused half-caster, like the Ranger or Paladin, so when looking at average damage output, it should be compared to them.

The Ranger and Paladin deal damage that on average only slightly exceed the Tinkerer, which is appropriate because the Tinkerer is not a primary damage dealer. The Tinkerer is good enough at fighting, because it has other things to do as well. Making it deal slightly less average damage than the Ranger and Paladin was a conscious decision I made to balance it against the power it receives from accelerated construction and the ability to make pseudo-magic devices like a rocket-propelled vehicle.

The Tinkerer is better at skills than both the Ranger and Paladin, having the same number of skill proficiencies granted as the Ranger with 3, and having access to the Expertise feature.

Clerics deal fairly meh damage unless you use spiritual guardians, so having an extra d8 at level 8 and 14 (or whatever) is not a good thing to compare to when you are a half caster. Clerics get it because they need more damage but they are a primary caster who can cast things like spiritual guardians.

Clerics don’t get smites. Tinkerer exchanges Extra Attack and fullcasting for elemental smites, 3rd level subclass damage boosts, and Cleric-style 8th/14th level weapon damage boosts. Please do the actual math like how I did for the Rogue, Ranger, and Paladin.

Clerics, being fullcasters, rely on their slotted spells for their apex damage output. The Tinkerer, not being a fullcaster, does not rely as much on their slotted spells for their apex damage output. Instead, the Tinkerer relies on combining scaling weapon damage with spell slots for its damage output, like the other halfcasters do.

All of the 5E classes have a basic level of combat ability, the ones that are not very good at combat are primary casters.

All 5e classes are good at combats and must meet minimum combat capability standards to be playable in 5e. Wizards have options, Sorcerers quicken, Warlocks w/ EB+AB are basically ranged Fighters, Bards crowd and single control but can also steal spells, and Clerics protect, hit slow but heavy, and typically have better AC than all the other fullcasters. What they gain in spellcasting power they lose in long-term survivability, i.e. Hit Dice.

How are you defining combat? The ability to sustain attacks at melee range? Then fullcasters are typically not good at that (except Clerics and to a lesser extent Bladesingers). But if we define combat as "Encounter w/ hostile forces that ends when one side is gone or unable to continue", then fullcasters are very good at combat. A single sleep or fireball spell could end an encounter several rounds before a blow-trading martial could. However, in exchange for such singular potencies fullcasters tend to trade away long term survivability.

Which is to say, every class shines in combat depending on the circumstances. A Fighter is probably not very good in an encounter riddled illusions and charm effects. A Barbarian is probably not very good in a long-range encounter. Each class has its strengths and weaknesses, No Class Is "Not Very Good" In Combat.

The Steam Knight gives up that combat ability for 3 power tools one of which is basically the light cantrip or you can buy a torch. Its "smites" do less damage than a Paladin.

What wizard casts the light cantrip when casting a damaging cantrip would be better? A Steam Knight will use its Power Tools when the situation calls for it, not to replace a weapon attack.

A Tinkerer's Smites do less damage than a Paladin's because A) you have the ability to change the elemental damage type whereas a Paladin is stuck with radiant (which is not a bad thing, but having options is a value in and of itself), and B) you can do ranged smites.

When I was talking about damage boosts I should have clarified it. I meant significant damage boost like a second attack or third attack or something like a Rogues sneak attack or cantrip scaling etc.

3rd, 8th, and 14th level are all significant damage boosts. Do you ever actually do the math to determine just how much damage is actually dealt on average by these features?

An extra dice of damage once per round barley matters. Sure clerics get ti they also get level 9 spells and are a primary caster and they get to play with things like spiritual guardians.

Clerics don't get smites or the ability to craft airplanes in the span of a few hours.

Knowing a heap of spells is also semi irrelevant when you can't cast them die to lack of spell slots and a small spell list, although I suppose you could use rituals I suppose and that is kinda marginal. Its like having a fast car and no fuel for it or a new PC with a big hard drive you can only use for 1 hour a day or something.

That's a spurious claim. Halfcasters get by just fine with the spell slots that they have. Knowing "a heap of spells" gives you options, and having access to options is inherently powerful. Point being made: A Tinkerer is a halfcaster like the Ranger and Paladin, but a Tinkerer's halfcasting is stronger than the Ranger's and the Paladin's.

If you make a half caster you are going to get compare to the Paladin or Ranger and a d10 if you are giving up their damage you have better be getting something damn good in return for it. That damn good doesn't have to be sheer damage but the steam knight gets a few toys and meh damage and less utility than the ranger.

Why are you comparing a subclass (steam knight) to a class (ranger)? Let us compare class to class.

Did you forget Construction and Power Appliance? The range and applicability of the Tinkerer's utility far exceeds that of a Ranger's. Which is part of why the hit die is a d8 instead of a d10. The Tinkerer is just so much stronger in terms of the Interaction Pillar than the Ranger. The Ranger has long been chastised for how limiting the campaign-dependent Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer features are.

For example a class could get a lot of utility, or it could get at will AoE damage that is low but consistent and can be enhanced via your spell slots. That is something other classes can't really do.

Utility like accelerated crafting and pseudo-magic item creation. Something other classes cannot do.

The Mechanic and Bombardier subclasses from the Tinkerer Advanced Article get AoE damage options at 3rd level. The Steam Knight gets auto-return damage to melee attackers.

The reason I did not mention all the minor abilities is because they don't add up to much. You don't always have to be all about the damage but why would you take a Steam Knight over a basic Ranger with a reasonable amount of min/maxi (say no feats, sword and board, ASIs in the right places str or dex, use some decent spells). You would have more utility, more damage more our of combat stuff and the Ranger spells.

You seem to often claim things, such as "you would have more utility, more damage more out of combat stuff and the Ranger spells", but never actually demonstrate your claims. Are you capable of demonstrating your claims? Do you have that capacity within you? Is demonstrating your claims within your wheelhouse?

Because a Ranger's utility is restricted to A) Whether you happen to be in the terrain you chose for Natural Explorer, B) whether you happen to be tracking a creature of a type you chose for your Favored Enemy, and if you're a beastmaster C) if you happen to chose an animal with keen senses or some other circumstantially beneficial utility ability.

And I'm sorry, but did you even actually understand the words on the Tinkerer document? How can you assert that a Ranger has more out-of-combat stuff than a Tinkerer? Half of the Tinkerer is Construction and Power Appliances and they have arguably far more frequent, broad, active, and immediate applicability than campaign-dependent Natural Explorer and creature-dependent Favored Enemy.

You are good at making toys and tools which is almost on par with a back ground power wise at least.

Can you point out the background that grants an ability that is on par with building a castle within the span of days or the ability to construct a wagon instantaneously and then immediately turn it into a getaway vehicle?

The standard PHB crafting rate is 5 gp/8 hours, and you can only work 8 hours in one day.

The level 1 crafting rate of a Tinkerer is 5 gp/1 hour. By 5th level, you're crafting at 30 gp/ 1 hour. You do in 1 hour what normally takes 6 days. You do in 8 hours what normally takes 48 days. By 11th level, 100 gp/1 hour. In 8 hours, you do the work of 160 artisans. By 20th, you do the work of 800.

It does not end there. You're in bed, and a bunch of assassins crash into the room on all sides. What do you do? Slap a couple flame engines on to the bed, rocket-propelled bed, team-rocket blast your way out of there.

Trapped in a room filling up with water? Quick-craft a helmet, slap a lightning engine onto it, and create oxygen via electrolysis. Don't bother with the water breathing spell; rare is the circumstance that someone has it prepared when they actually need it, and come on it's a 3rd level spell slot.

Need to get across a poison swamp? Stick a bunch of cold engines onto a sled and glide your way across. Save yourself a fly.

Monster hunts via heat vision? Slap a cold engine to your chest and reduce your heat signature. Need to create a distraction? Program a lightning-engine-powered lever to activate 15 minutes after setting it, unleashing a bag of 100,000 ball bearings you crafted an hour earlier. Need to conceal your party but don't have fog cloud prepared? Slap a flame engine onto a cold engine and spend a 1st level spell slot to create a cloud of steam.

The Tinkerer is limited only by the player's imagination, the DM's capability, and the suggested limitations outlined in my guide to designing power appliances. Perhaps it may not be the class for you.

But, in how I have demonstrated my claims, there is no denying the power a Tinkerer has to impact the flow of an adventure. There is also no denying that the Tinkerer is sufficiently competent in combat, at least compared to the Ranger and Paladin.

 

[Zardnaar]

Why are you comparing the Tinkerer to primary spell casters? This is a weapon-focused half-caster, like the Ranger or Paladin, so when looking at average damage output, it should be compared to them.

The Ranger and Paladin deal damage that on average only slightly exceed the Tinkerer, which is appropriate because the Tinkerer is not a primary damage dealer. The Tinkerer is good enough at fighting, because it has other things to do as well. Making it deal slightly less average damage than the Ranger and Paladin was a conscious decision I made to balance it against the power it receives from accelerated construction and the ability to make pseudo-magic devices like a rocket-propelled vehicle.

The Tinkerer is better at skills than both the Ranger and Paladin, having the same number of skill proficiencies granted as the Ranger with 3, and having access to the Expertise feature.



Clerics don’t get smites. Tinkerer exchanges Extra Attack and fullcasting for elemental smites, 3rd level subclass damage boosts, and Cleric-style 8th/14th level weapon damage boosts. Please do the actual math like how I did for the Rogue, Ranger, and Paladin.

Clerics, being fullcasters, rely on their slotted spells for their apex damage output. The Tinkerer, not being a fullcaster, does not rely as much on their slotted spells for their apex damage output. Instead, the Tinkerer relies on combining scaling weapon damage with spell slots for its damage output, like the other halfcasters do.



All 5e classes are good at combats and must meet minimum combat capability standards to be playable in 5e. Wizards have options, Sorcerers quicken, Warlocks w/ EB+AB are basically ranged Fighters, Bards crowd and single control but can also steal spells, and Clerics protect, hit slow but heavy, and typically have better AC than all the other fullcasters. What they gain in spellcasting power they lose in long-term survivability, i.e. Hit Dice.

How are you defining combat? The ability to sustain attacks at melee range? Then fullcasters are typically not good at that (except Clerics and to a lesser extent Bladesingers). But if we define combat as "Encounter w/ hostile forces that ends when one side is gone or unable to continue", then fullcasters are very good at combat. A single sleep or fireball spell could end an encounter several rounds before a blow-trading martial could. However, in exchange for such singular potencies fullcasters tend to trade away long term survivability.

Which is to say, every class shines in combat depending on the circumstances. A Fighter is probably not very good in an encounter riddled illusions and charm effects. A Barbarian is probably not very good in a long-range encounter. Each class has its strengths and weaknesses, No Class Is "Not Very Good" In Combat.



What wizard casts the light cantrip when casting a damaging cantrip would be better? A Steam Knight will use its Power Tools when the situation calls for it, not to replace a weapon attack.

A Tinkerer's Smites do less damage than a Paladin's because A) you have the ability to change the elemental damage type whereas a Paladin is stuck with radiant (which is not a bad thing, but having options is a value in and of itself), and B) you can do ranged smites.



3rd, 8th, and 14th level are all significant damage boosts. Do you ever actually do the math to determine just how much damage is actually dealt on average by these features?



Clerics don't get smites or the ability to craft airplanes in the span of a few hours.



That's a spurious claim. Halfcasters get by just fine with the spell slots that they have. Knowing "a heap of spells" gives you options, and having access to options is inherently powerful. Point being made: A Tinkerer is a halfcaster like the Ranger and Paladin, but a Tinkerer's halfcasting is stronger than the Ranger's and the Paladin's.



Why are you comparing a subclass (steam knight) to a class (ranger)? Let us compare class to class.

Did you forget Construction and Power Appliance? The range and applicability of the Tinkerer's utility far exceeds that of a Ranger's. Which is part of why the hit die is a d8 instead of a d10. The Tinkerer is just so much stronger in terms of the Interaction Pillar than the Ranger. The Ranger has long been chastised for how limiting the campaign-dependent Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer features are.



Utility like accelerated crafting and pseudo-magic item creation. Something other classes cannot do.

The Mechanic and Bombardier subclasses from the Tinkerer Advanced Article get AoE damage options at 3rd level. The Steam Knight gets auto-return damage to melee attackers.



You seem to often claim things, such as "you would have more utility, more damage more out of combat stuff and the Ranger spells", but never actually demonstrate your claims. Are you capable of demonstrating your claims? Do you have that capacity within you? Is demonstrating your claims within your wheelhouse?

Because a Ranger's utility is restricted to A) Whether you happen to be in the terrain you chose for Natural Explorer, B) whether you happen to be tracking a creature of a type you chose for your Favored Enemy, and if you're a beastmaster C) if you happen to chose an animal with keen senses or some other circumstantially beneficial utility ability.

And I'm sorry, but did you even actually understand the words on the Tinkerer document? How can you assert that a Ranger has more out-of-combat stuff than a Tinkerer? Half of the Tinkerer is Construction and Power Appliances and they have arguably far more frequent, broad, active, and immediate applicability than campaign-dependent Natural Explorer and creature-dependent Favored Enemy.



Can you point out the background that grants an ability that is on par with building a castle within the span of days or the ability to construct a wagon instantaneously and then immediately turn it into a getaway vehicle?

The standard PHB crafting rate is 5 gp/8 hours, and you can only work 8 hours in one day.

The level 1 crafting rate of a Tinkerer is 5 gp/1 hour. By 5th level, you're crafting at 30 gp/ 1 hour. You do in 1 hour what normally takes 6 days. You do in 8 hours what normally takes 48 days. By 11th level, 100 gp/1 hour. In 8 hours, you do the work of 160 artisans. By 20th, you do the work of 800.

It does not end there. You're in bed, and a bunch of assassins crash into the room on all sides. What do you do? Slap a couple flame engines on to the bed, rocket-propelled bed, team-rocket blast your way out of there.

Trapped in a room filling up with water? Quick-craft a helmet, slap a lightning engine onto it, and create oxygen via electrolysis. Don't bother with the water breathing spell; rare is the circumstance that someone has it prepared when they actually need it, and come on it's a 3rd level spell slot.

Need to get across a poison swamp? Stick a bunch of cold engines onto a sled and glide your way across. Save yourself a fly.

Monster hunts via heat vision? Slap a cold engine to your chest and reduce your heat signature. Need to create a distraction? Program a lightning-engine-powered lever to activate 15 minutes after setting it, unleashing a bag of 100,000 ball bearings you crafted an hour earlier. Need to conceal your party but don't have fog cloud prepared? Slap a flame engine onto a cold engine and spend a 1st level spell slot to create a cloud of steam.

The Tinkerer is limited only by the player's imagination, the DM's capability, and the suggested limitations outlined in my guide to designing power appliances. Perhaps it may not be the class for you.

But, in how I have demonstrated my claims, there is no denying the power a Tinkerer has to impact the flow of an adventure. There is also no denying that the Tinkerer is sufficiently competent in combat, at least compared to the Ranger and Paladin.

I was talking about the steam knight I have not looked at the other 2 subclasses yet. Also the Tinkerer only had 3 power tools in the initial article.

If the other two subclasses are better I will rate them higher and it will drag up the rating I gave the class. Just using the 1st article the Steam Knight basically stinks. I also think you are over rating the construction ability as you can usually buy non magical whatever and things like magi tech airpanes do not exist. And if the do you can probably buy them.

Unless you are playing a low tech world and the DM lets you play a Tinkerer but IDK why the class would be allowed in that type of setting. I did mention that in some campaigns the Tinkerer construction ability could be useful but it still seems more of an NPC thing.

If the Bombardier is what I think it is (some kind of gun/cannon) class with a ranged smite attack now that is useful even if its damage is not up there with a Rangers. I had a similar idea except it was AoE ranged damage. I did crunch the numbers ofr a Steam Knight but I still did not think it was that good.

Monsters also have not used heat vision since 2E maybe 3E, at least in any significant numbers. Level 7, 14 and 15 are also a long way away see a low level Steam Knight compared with a low level hunter ranger. I think I mentioned I rate levels 1-10 as more important than level 11-20. Yes the hunter ranger might be the DPR version of the Ranger but stream knight kind of implies magi tech power armor. With a d8 hit dice it should probably deal warrior level damage, sure it an build stuff fast but a Paladin can heal outside combat and the Ranger is kind of a wilder rogue, I would rate that ability roughly on par with constructing things fast. And that whole Paladin aura that is better than an ASI.

Hell you could deal damage equal to the non heavy hitters and give the class a d10 hit dice and I think you would be alright balance wise and dump the cleric extra damage thing at level 7 and 14 and give the steam knight 2nd attack at level 5 like the bladelock warlock or even give the base class the 2nd attack. Also give them armor at level 1 instead of 3. You still won't match a hunter ranger or avenger paladin for damage but you would be in the same ballpark as the other archetypes perhaps.

Or you could do another test. There is 1200 patreons, start a thread asking if anyone is playing a Steam Knight.

I had a quick look the bombardier is a lot better. Mecahnic looks a bit more complicated so I'll have a closer read later its bedtime here.

 

[Leuku1]

I was talking about the steam knight I have not looked at the other 2 subclasses yet. Also the Tinkerer only had 3 power tools in the initial article.

It's that blasted character count limit. Original Tinkerer (including all 3 subclasses) was near 10000 characters. For both Basic and Advanced articles, total character count had to be reduced to 6500.

Read closely enough, you'll see that they're called Power Appliances; Power Tool is one example of a Power Appliance, that the 3 Power Appliances at the end of the document are examples of what a Power Appliance can be, and that you're heavily encouraged if not expected to make your own Power Appliances with the cooperation of the your DM, since the functionality of your engines are open-ended and malleable.

If the other two subclasses are better I will rate them higher and it will drag up the rating I gave the class. Just using the 1st article the Steam Knight basically stinks. I also think you are over rating the construction ability as you can usually buy non magical whatever

So far you've only been able to assert that the Steam Knight "stinks". You have yet to be able to demonstrate it. If it does stink, you should be able to demonstrate it with numbers, as I have demonstrated the average damage outputs of the Steam Knight, Hunter Ranger, Rogue, and Paladin.

Buying "non-magical whatever" typically requires that you have access to a store that is selling it. How many stores happen to be selling a bag of ball bearings in the dungeon you are exploring, or a wagon in the forest you are lost in? How many stores are selling stone walls for a castle?

In the Advanced Article, you will see an example of a Power Appliance called the "Single Skyrider", which is a flying vehicle.

and things like magi tech airpanes do not exist. And if the do you can probably buy them.

Since the wish spell exists, you can probably buy it, so why bother learning it yourself? /s

If someone is selling a magi tech airplane, then it's probably a Tinkerer selling it.

Unless you are playing a low tech world and the DM lets you play a Tinkerer but IDK why the class would be allowed in that type of setting. I did mention that in some campaigns the Tinkerer construction ability could be useful but it still seems more of an NPC thing.

How a Tinkerer functions while disregarding the degree of tech in a given campaign world is through its other primary feature Affect Engine. These engines are entirely unique to tinkerers and cannot function without their creator. These engines transform mundane objects to pseudo-magical ones, so it is generally impossible for a Tinkerer to upset the technological progress of a low-tech world due to the exclusivity of the engine to the Tinkerer. Non-tinkerers cannot replicate an affect engine, and Power Appliances are reliant on affect engines to function. These "magi tech" are essentially spells unique to the Tinkerer and Tinkerer alone. Instead of Find Steed you get Rocket Powered Wagon.

I am sad that I have to explain all this to you because all this is already effectively covered in the class' descriptions.

If the Bombardier is what I think it is (some kind of gun/cannon) class with a ranged smite attack now that is useful even if its damage is not up there with a Rangers. I had a similar idea except it was AoE ranged damage. I did crunch the numbers ofr a Steam Knight but I still did not think it was that good.

The Bombardier is AoE ranged damage. The Tinkerer can already ranged smite using Affect Discharge. My eye just started twitching because I've mentioned how the Tinkerer in general is able to ranged smite several times already.

I crunched the numbers of the Steam Knight for you earlier, and the average damage came just below a Hunter Ranger and Paladin. The damage output of the Tinkerer is not supposed to be amazing, just good enough to keep it meaningful in combat, and coming just below Hunter Ranger and Paladin is meaningful enough.

Monsters also have not used heat vision since 2E maybe 3E, at least in any significant numbers.

Is that really an important point to contest? My point in that paragraph was that affect engine usage is flexible and adaptable to your immediate circumstances, much more so than the entire Ranger kit. I homebrew a lot of monsters for my campaigns, so coming up with unique monster attributes not already represented in the 5e MM and similar is not a foreign concept to me.

Level 7, 14 and 15 are also a long way away see a low level Steam Knight compared with a low level hunter ranger. I think I mentioned I rate levels 1-10 as more important than level 11-20.

You have yet to mention your rating of levels until this point. I also rate earlier levels more important than later levels due to frequency of play and encounter scaling at lower levels vs higher levels.

Yes the hunter ranger might be the DPR version of the Ranger but stream knight kind of implies magi tech power armor.

Which the Steam Knight has, though what "magi tech power armor" implies is up to an individual's interpretation of those words. My interpretation is armor that automatically retaliates against hostile forces, can fly in some capacity, and protects you better. Steam Knight does all of this and more.

I do already have ideas on Affect Armor revisions in case the auto-damage is not "fun" enough. These include Bonus Action 5 ft. radius AoE damage INT mod/short rest and Hellish Rebuke style sudden spike damage 1/short rest.

With a d8 hit dice it should probably deal warrior level damage,

A monk has a d8 hit die and doesn't deal "warrior level damage". Also "warrior level damage" is undefined.

sure it an build stuff fast but a Paladin can heal outside combat and the Ranger is kind of a wilder rogue, I would rate that ability roughly on par with constructing things fast. And that whole Paladin aura that is better than an ASI.

Rate which ability? The Paladin's Lay on Hands and the Ranger's... ? And the significance of the Paladin's aura being better than an ASI is? It's not like the Tinkerer gets an ASI at 6th level.

Hell you could deal damage equal to the non heavy hitters and give the class a d10 hit dice and I think you would be alright balance wise and dump the cleric extra damage thing at level 7 and 14 and give the steam knight 2nd attack at level 5 like the bladelock warlock or even give the base class the 2nd attack.

I did not want to use Extra Attack. I wanted to make a slow but hard hitter. So I found a way via Elemental Smites, 3rd level subclass damage improvements, and 8th/14th level cleric-style weapon damage scaling. Most importantly, it is balanced if you actually run the numbers.

The Tinkerer doesn't need Extra Attack. I have demonstrated how it doesn't. Can you demonstrate how it does?

Also give them armor at level 1 instead of 3. You still won't match a hunter ranger or avenger paladin for damage but you would be in the same ballpark as the other archetypes perhaps.

Tinkerers do have armor at level 1 up to medium armor. Ranger never gets heavy armor. Steam Knight is granted Heavy Armor and shields at 3rd level.

Or you could do another test. There is 1200 patreons, start a thread asking if anyone is playing a Steam Knight.

I am already awaiting feedback from patreons about the Steam Knight, and a campaign I'm about to join has a friend that will be playing a Steam Knight. It's a Kingmaker campaign, and I'm very excited to see how far my friend can push the Tinkerer's crafting limits in a nation-building campaign.

From start to finish, including the significant revisions made to adapt it to the En5ider patreon, the Tinkerer is approximately a 2 year long project. In terms of theoretical numbers, everything functions as expected. All that's left is to see how it feels in broad-use play.

I had a quick look the bombardier is a lot better.

Not numbers-wise, though, because numbers-wise the Bombardier is generally on par with the Steam Knight, a bit more damage due to lesser AC.

Mecahnic looks a bit more complicated so I'll have a closer read later its bedtime here.

Have a good night!

 

[Zardnaar]

It's that blasted character count limit. Original Tinkerer (including all 3 subclasses) was near 10000 characters. For both Basic and Advanced articles, total character count had to be reduced to 6500.

Read closely enough, you'll see that they're called Power Appliances; Power Tool is one example of a Power Appliance, that the 3 Power Appliances at the end of the document are examples of what a Power Appliance can be, and that you're heavily encouraged if not expected to make your own Power Appliances with the cooperation of the your DM, since the functionality of your engines are open-ended and malleable.



So far you've only been able to assert that the Steam Knight "stinks". You have yet to be able to demonstrate it. If it does stink, you should be able to demonstrate it with numbers, as I have demonstrated the average damage outputs of the Steam Knight, Hunter Ranger, Rogue, and Paladin.

Buying "non-magical whatever" typically requires that you have access to a store that is selling it. How many stores happen to be selling a bag of ball bearings in the dungeon you are exploring, or a wagon in the forest you are lost in? How many stores are selling stone walls for a castle?

In the Advanced Article, you will see an example of a Power Appliance called the "Single Skyrider", which is a flying vehicle.



Since the wish spell exists, you can probably buy it, so why bother learning it yourself? /s

If someone is selling a magi tech airplane, then it's probably a Tinkerer selling it.



How a Tinkerer functions while disregarding the degree of tech in a given campaign world is through its other primary feature Affect Engine. These engines are entirely unique to tinkerers and cannot function without their creator. These engines transform mundane objects to pseudo-magical ones, so it is generally impossible for a Tinkerer to upset the technological progress of a low-tech world due to the exclusivity of the engine to the Tinkerer. Non-tinkerers cannot replicate an affect engine, and Power Appliances are reliant on affect engines to function. These "magi tech" are essentially spells unique to the Tinkerer and Tinkerer alone. Instead of Find Steed you get Rocket Powered Wagon.

I am sad that I have to explain all this to you because all this is already effectively covered in the class' descriptions.



The Bombardier is AoE ranged damage. The Tinkerer can already ranged smite using Affect Discharge. My eye just started twitching because I've mentioned how the Tinkerer in general is able to ranged smite several times already.

I crunched the numbers of the Steam Knight for you earlier, and the average damage came just below a Hunter Ranger and Paladin. The damage output of the Tinkerer is not supposed to be amazing, just good enough to keep it meaningful in combat, and coming just below Hunter Ranger and Paladin is meaningful enough.



Is that really an important point to contest? My point in that paragraph was that affect engine usage is flexible and adaptable to your immediate circumstances, much more so than the entire Ranger kit. I homebrew a lot of monsters for my campaigns, so coming up with unique monster attributes not already represented in the 5e MM and similar is not a foreign concept to me.



You have yet to mention your rating of levels until this point. I also rate earlier levels more important than later levels due to frequency of play and encounter scaling at lower levels vs higher levels.



Which the Steam Knight has, though what "magi tech power armor" implies is up to an individual's interpretation of those words. My interpretation is armor that automatically retaliates against hostile forces, can fly in some capacity, and protects you better. Steam Knight does all of this and more.

I do already have ideas on Affect Armor revisions in case the auto-damage is not "fun" enough. These include Bonus Action 5 ft. radius AoE damage INT mod/short rest and Hellish Rebuke style sudden spike damage 1/short rest.



A monk has a d8 hit die and doesn't deal "warrior level damage". Also "warrior level damage" is undefined.



Rate which ability? The Paladin's Lay on Hands and the Ranger's... ? And the significance of the Paladin's aura being better than an ASI is? It's not like the Tinkerer gets an ASI at 6th level.



I did not want to use Extra Attack. I wanted to make a slow but hard hitter. So I found a way via Elemental Smites, 3rd level subclass damage improvements, and 8th/14th level cleric-style weapon damage scaling. Most importantly, it is balanced if you actually run the numbers.

The Tinkerer doesn't need Extra Attack. I have demonstrated how it doesn't. Can you demonstrate how it does?



Tinkerers do have armor at level 1 up to medium armor. Ranger never gets heavy armor. Steam Knight is granted Heavy Armor and shields at 3rd level.



I am already awaiting feedback from patreons about the Steam Knight, and a campaign I'm about to join has a friend that will be playing a Steam Knight. It's a Kingmaker campaign, and I'm very excited to see how far my friend can push the Tinkerer's crafting limits in a nation-building campaign.

From start to finish, including the significant revisions made to adapt it to the En5ider patreon, the Tinkerer is approximately a 2 year long project. In terms of theoretical numbers, everything functions as expected. All that's left is to see how it feels in broad-use play.



Not numbers-wise, though, because numbers-wise the Bombardier is generally on par with the Steam Knight, a bit more damage due to lesser AC.



Have a good night!

Erm the Monk does deal warrior level damage from level 1. They get that bonus action unarmed attack + modifier and can dual wield a spear. This means your level 1 monk deals.

1d8+3 (assuming 16 dex) and 1d4+4 minimum. They can use ki points to flurry as well to spike the damage a bit. By level 5 they are doing.

1d8+4/1d8+4, 1d6+4 with the option for another 1d6+4. That holds up well to the warriors including two handed weapon users, monk avg damage is 25.5, great weapon is around 24.

Using the Tinker

At level 1. Can't wear heavy armor or use shield. This is worse than the Paladin and the Ranger and all clerics. Has a d8 hit dice worse than both of them. Gets a construction bonus and affect engine which doesn't seem to do anything
Level 2. Gets spellcasting (draw with Paladin/Ranger). Gets a smite effect worse than the Paladins but can be used at range, Ranger however can get hunters quarry> 2 daily weak smites. Ranger and Paladins also get a combat style minor damage buff.

Your 1st 2 levels are basically terrible compared with virtually all of the combat classes, clerics and most of the spellcasters as well. The only other combat class that doesn't get armor and stuff at level 1 is the Valor Bard and that class is still a primary caster.

3. Hunter Ranger (steam knight is the tinkerer damage dealer build yes?) stuff, you finally get some decent armour so you can melee and not suck. You get a situational and passive damage buff, you have to get hit the DM can just not attack you its not like your base damage is actually that good at best martial weapon damage. Paladins, Rangers, Fighters and Monks, Rogues etc can all have active damage meaning they get their extrra damage on the offensive and even if its situational (clolossus slayer, hordebreaker) its on top of a weapon style, easier to trigger and hunters quarry for all rangers and avenger Paladins. Even worse to trigger your passive damage ability you have to get hit (its better to do the hitting).

level 4. ASI's all around.

Level 5. Rangers and Paladins get a second attack that their combat styles and everything else stacks with. Steam Knight some crafting stuff, a sword and board ranger is getting two attacks at 1d8+2, probably another 2d6 via hunters quarry and probably colossus slayer or hordebreaker. Paladins are doing something similar and avengers also can get the +2d6 hunters quarry. Steam Knight 1d8+ ability mod, situational 1d6 which even if it was not situational is still worse than a second attack. Even the Rogue is dealing something like 1d8+3d6 reliably. You are almost scaling damage worse than cantrips here.

Level 6. Paladins get the aura AKA one of the best class features in the game, you can get your situational elemental damage to switch to another elemental damage.

Level 8 next damage buff. An additional 1d8 once per turn. Your sword and board is now dealing 2d8+ ability mod, situational +1d6. Sure you can use a two handed weapon but so can the others. Rogues are dealing 1d8+4d6+ optional 1d6 off hand (or 1d8+4 if they know what they are doing), Rangers and Paladins are at least 1d8+4 X2 with additional damage stacked on that as well. Monks are getting 3 attacks + ability mod with the option to have 4.

An arcane cleric using green flame blade is consistently dealing a similar damage to the Steam Knight assuming the steam knight actually gets hit. Any cleric in the world is probably out damaging the steam knight due to spiritual weapons and guardians. Sure the steam knight can smite but the Paladin gets that as well, the Ranger gets consistent damage instead and the cleric can spike their damage as well using thier spells and gets twice as many spell slots.

I'll put it another way you could give this class 1d10 hit dice, a second attack at level 5, an extra 1d6 elemental damage from level 3 or so tha its on all of the time, heavy armor and shields from level 1 and that puts it in the Ranger and Paladin ballpark (dumping the affect armour ability). Hell you could almost keep the affect armor ability it bring it roughly into line with the hunter ranger.

You could also ditch the affect engine part, just give them an extra 1d6 elemental damage (maybe requiring attainment or a short rest), and have them infuse their armor to give them extra damage if they get hit, 1d8 would not be unreasonable there.

If you want to give them one attack you need to give them something similar to Rogue level damage. The non combat features are fine but other classes get non combat features/spells as well and crafting stuff fast is cute but its not worth sacrificing a lot of combat ability over it. I'm not sure the steam knight even compares that well to valor bards and I don't consider them very good at combat either but they are a primary caster still so its fine (same with Bladesinger).

That is the numbers broken down for you and why the class is actually terrible. It doesn't even look good to a beastmaster ranger as the base ranger abilities, ranger spells + beast still stack up better than the Steam Knight. You can count its affect armor discharge ability as a damage buff, its situational and its a bad situation. If you're counting that the Hunter Ranger gets to count colossus slayer or hordebreaker as always on and both are easier to trigger.

I had a quick look at the bombardier damage still looks low (compare with a Rogue using a shortbow and that is not that great either). Seems like you can't use the engine blast thing to smite but looks like it doesn't compare that well to a very basic warlock using blasting spells and that is not a great warlock build either. Nope its actually worse you only get 1 ammunition piece back that takes 30 minutes to craft and it deals 1st level spell damage. Compare with a light clerics who get radiance of the dawn (radiant>elemental damage BTW), similar weapons and is a primary caster vs your half caster. The bombardiers primary ability is completely obsoleted by 1 of a life clerics liabilities. Once again if you are designing a half caster with a single attack r spell like abilities that 1 attack has to be a good one or your spell like abilities have to compare well with actual spells. Having 7 spells to smite with (even if you know a few level 1 and 2 spells) won't help out much there.

A 2 level dip and MC into Arcane Trickster also blows the Steam Knight out of the water. Steam knight spellcasting stacks with arcane trickster, spell slots can be used for smiting on sneak attacks. And that is not a particularly abusive MC option there like the Sorlock.

Every subclass seems worse on multiple levels than existing basic PHB options. Two years working on this I cold probably bang out something better in 2 days or 2 weeks tops and it would not over power the PHB.