Pathfinder 1E This has been asked many times....Advanced Fire Arms -- Rapid Reload

[Light Knight]

I've read so many threads till I was blue in the face.....And I have NOT found anything conclusive on whether or not Rapid Reload makes advanced firearms load faster than a move action.

Most say no, but it seems logical that at minimum would make it swift...(not necessarily free)

 

[RangerWickett]

Spirit of the rules wins out here for me. It clearly reduces move reloads to swift, standards to moves, and full-rounds to standards. Advanced firearms normally take a move action to reload, so it seems obvious it become swift. That still just means two shots per round max.

Hm, if you fire, swift reload, and fire, can you then move action reload?

 

[billd91]

Check Ultimate Combat. It has a revised Rapid Reload feat.
Here's the link via d20pfsrd.com: Rapid Reload (Combat)

Since it does not specify anything about advanced firearms and there are plenty to be had in that book, my best conclusion is that it does not reduce the faster reload action of the advanced firearm.

 

[RangerWickett]

Check Ultimate Combat. It has a revised Rapid Reload feat.
Here's the link via d20pfsrd.com: Rapid Reload (Combat)

Since it does not specify anything about advanced firearms and there are plenty to be had in that book, my best conclusion is that it does not reduce the faster reload action of the advanced firearm.

People in reality can fire multiple rounds from a breech-loading rifle in the span of six seconds. If a game allows for wizards, I'm not going to make things that actually can happen be impossible. It makes perfect sense to me that with that feat you can reload as a swift action, and reload a second time as a move action.

 

[N'raac]

There are a few holes in the firearm rules. Advanced firearms use metal cartridges which are "sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges". "Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)"

It would seem reasonable to interpret that an advanced firearm loaded with something other than an alchemical cartridge would take a standard action to reload (and have a misfire value one less than the table indicates), if it could be loaded with something else. Rapid Reload would reduce that to a move action, and the metal (alchemical) cartridge reduces that to a free (not swift) action, consistent with the rules above.

I like that explanation a lot better than "if you take this feat and specifically apply it to an advanced firearm, it has no benefit". I also note the comment that "Normal: A character without this feat needs a ... standard action to reload a one-handed firearm", but he does not need a standard action to reload a one-handed advanced firearm, does he?

If rapid reload can accelerate an alchemical cartridge reload in an early firearm from Move to Free, it should have the same impact on an advanced firearm, which can normally be fully reloaded as a move action. I get the sense advanced firearms were tagged on at the end, and the related materials not really updated to reflect their inclusion.

To the comment that rapid reload "does not specify anything about advanced firearms", I note that rapid reload also says all one-handed firearms normally require a standard action to reload, and all two handed firearms require a full action. Neither statement is true of advanced firearms, which seems to indicate that, despite the fact "there are plenty to be had in that book", they were not incorporated, or even considered, in the update of the Rapid Reload feat.

The feat also requires EWP: Firearm. Perhaps we should interpret that to mean that, even if guns are everywhere and thus simple weapons (much less common, and martial weapons), you must still use a feat for exotic weapon proficiency before you may take Rapid Reload. I prefer to interpret the words based on the standard of emerging guns, "which is also the default category of gun rarity detailed in this Pathfinder RPG supplement." You can't even buy advanced firearms in that category, so it follows reasonably that rapid reload would not consider such rare and wondrous weapons, and must be extrapolated to fit.

 

[ggeilman]

The entire concept of reloading muzzle loading firearms shows a complete lack of understanding of the weapons involved. Even with a prepacked ball and powder which is what the alchemical cartridge is meant to represent the best trained fire rate was 3 rounds a minute with what would be considered 'rapid reload', otherwise it was 2 rounds per minute. Even reloading an advanced firearm takes some time to eject the cartridges one at a time and reload them one at a time. There exists no such thing as a speed loader for a Single Action firearm. Our fastest shooters could not accomplish this faster than a move action. I suggest the designers spend some time and go out to a SASS event some time and see how it is actually done. Make sure you talk to one of the cap and ball shooters.

 

[N'raac]

It's funny that it's so very important that firearms be more realistic that Hollywood action movies in a world where people cast spells and the shooter is targeting flying, fire-breathing dragons. How realistic are monks when compared to real world martial artists, or tricked out archers compared to real world bows and arrows?

If we restrict firearms to firing every 3 - 5 rounds, how will they compare to other weapons choices? I'd rather the rules focus on play balance than realism.

 

[delericho]

If we restrict firearms to firing every 3 - 5 rounds, how will they compare to other weapons choices? I'd rather the rules focus on play balance than realism.

In my one-and-only session run with firearms rules (not Pathfinder), we had very long reload times matched with somewhat-higher damage for firearms. The consequence of that was that the PCs generally opened combat with a single shot, before ditching their firearms in favour of swords and similar weapons.

Which rather neatly gave exactly the feel that I was looking for.

 

[ggeilman]

Interesting that you would mention bows. I was surfing the net the last week and came across a Danish archer that makes Legolas look sick.
(Well great it still won't let me post a link. Do a search on Danish Archers, Lars Anderson is his name.)
Shows what a high level or epic archer can really do. I tend to agree with delericho that the damage should probably be a bit higher than it is. There are reasons why pirates and such carried mulitple single shot pistols. Sorry, I don't buy the argument that Hollywood movies should be our benchmark on what should be realistic in a game. This march to "play balance" since 3.x has gone way too far IMHO. I like a balanced game, don't get me wrong, but the more they try and balance it the more they break it. AFAIC it wasn't broken in 1E, but hey what do I know?

 

[N'raac]

In my one-and-only session run with firearms rules (not Pathfinder), we had very long reload times matched with somewhat-higher damage for firearms. The consequence of that was that the PCs generally opened combat with a single shot, before ditching their firearms in favour of swords and similar weapons.

Which rather neatly gave exactly the feel that I was looking for.

If that's the feel you're looking for, then it works for that game. It does not allow for the character whose signature weapon is a firearm, so that feel is denied. Given that, I think this would be a poor default rule, but a great toolkitting option.