Theory behind class design in rpgs and general video games?

[Ishida52134]

So I'm primarily interested in class design and specific classes in mmo's.
Basically I want to know:
1) How do devs create classes? How do they think of them and their skills and calculate formulas and decide on which mechanics to implement and various roles?
2) We're used to the warriors clerics rogues mages archetypes. Are there any like crafting only rpgs? What classes would be present in those rpgs? What other class-based games/genre can there be?
3) What else is there to look at regarding class/character design?
4) Can every set of roles or individual things be associated to rogues warriors mages and clerics in some way? Like for example phoenix wright.
Both in video games and in the real world? Are there sets that don't?
5) so what else is there to read/research/learn about class-design and class system in video games? ?
6) how do you differentiate between mages and other classes?
Ultimately my mian goal is to be able to relate rogue and warrior classes to other things.
Basically, I like rogue and warrior classses the most. So I want to learn more about them and about class design and the fundamentals and history of it in general.
How exactly do you figure out if something fits in the rogue/warrior category?
Do you look at everything including stats attributes AND role? And is it also true that stats and attributes generally define the role? Since the role is not consistent at all if you look at guild wars 2 and hte professions. In addition I've seen warriors play dps and tank and even support and rogues as dps and dodge tanks and utility roles as well.
thanks.
This is what I think so far:
isn't the goal of the game and the available mechanics the primary determining factor of the classes setup? Well, when I'm referring to crafting classes, let's make a better example, the world in which we live in lol. In order to keep the economy going and keep technology advancing we have different professions/classes/archetypes which contribute to the economy and work as a whole. For example, we have engineers, scientists, teachers, bankers, accountants, businessmen, policemen, etc. which all work together to keep the economy going. Each archetype works on the disadvantage of another archetype and attempts to solve what it can't do. Like in the holy trinity, dps is squishy, so the tank draws aggro to solve that problem. And the tank can't live forever, so the healer is there to solve the problem. It's just that our world is far more complex with so many different mechanics and variables that we need a ton of professions/archetypes to solve different problems. And based on the available mechanics, the devs attempt to create a system of the least classes possible needed to fully take advantage of those available mechanics and create a efficient working system.
Another example, of this would be easily visible if we look at another theoretical game. For example, a game where the goal isn't in every single mmorpg which is to lower health bars. let's say we were attempting to just land a single hit on an enemy. Then the entire class system would change. We wouldn't use the traditional rogues warriors clerics and mages anymore. We would have classes like the striker or the class that supports to help the striker easily hit the enemy or given more mechanics another class that aids in defending the striker. The system is different but similar to the holy trinity because it still revolves around combat. However, mechanics do matter a lot imo. Say we allow building towers, that would allow far more complexity to the game and allow the entrance of new archetypes such as engineers and construction builders.
Thus, if we deviate from the goal of the game and mechanics, wouldn't our set of classes be totally different from the traditional warrior rogue cleric and mage that we see in every game?

then again I'm only referring to the roles. So would the traditional archetypes rogues warriors clerics and mages still be applicable in other genres.
thanks.



Lol if you don't want to read any of the above at all here's what I want to say in short:
Basically I like rogue and warrior classes. My main goal is to learn about them and about class design and the fundamentals and history as stated above. In addition, I also seek to relate the many genres of rpgs stretching from fantasy to futuristic rpgs mainly through the classes.

 

[Stormonu]

Classes are nothing more than a predetermined package of abilities and a predilection towards a certain group of skills that someone decided fit a particular stereotype. It's essentially a template.

Many modern RPGs ditch class systems all together and go for a skill-based solution, allowing you to compound a character's abilities into just about any form you want.

While you can shoehorn just about anyone into Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, or Cleric, that's not the only "classes" that exist. Again, because a class is nothing more than a way of grouping someone based on stereotypes, you can certainly design your own classes to fit a specific stereotype. For example, Paladin takes the Fighter and Cleric class and combines them to make a new class that is slightly different that Fighter or Cleric alone.

Some RPGs use archetypes - prebuilt characters - that are very similar to classes, but being generally part of a skill-based system, let you expand the character in whatever direction you want. Examples can be found in oWoD Vampire & Werewolf clan books, the Star Wars d6 character templates, Deadland's premade characters and the like.

For the D&D game, the fighter class deals with all things martial - weapons, armor, fighting styles. If it's about man-to-man straight-up fighting, it belongs in the fighter class.

The rogue is a little trickier. Unlike the fighter's strong theme of "fight, fight, fight", the rogue encompasses a lot of tricky ground. And in a way, that's what the rogue is about - being tricky. They're not likely to engage in a straight up fight, tend to be self-reliant and are generally up to no good. They encompass all the aspects of lazy, selfish and manipulative - they embrace all the aspects of the Seven Sins. They lie, cheat and scam their way through life, without devoting themselves to any one passion.

 

[Evenglare]

OP I would kill for a book that talked about this kind of stuff.

 

[Celebrim]

Basically, a class is a role within a game. The type of game determines the metrics that you design the class by. For example, if the game is highly tactical in nature, then the roles will be defined by the range of tactics available - offensive, defensive, attrition, interdiction, area denial, intelligence gathering, etc. Often classes for games like this are designed to work like Roshambo - class A negates the advantages of class B and its exploits its weaknesses, while class B negates the advantages of class C, which in turn is able to defeat class A. You see design of classes like this in RPG inspired shooters, and in tactical RPGs like final fantasy. Arguably you see this sort of influence in the class design of 4e with its Controller, Leader, Defender, Striker metaclasses.

But a game might not primarily define its roles in terms of combat if combat is not its primary focus. You could make a highly narrative game by focusing on the roles of characters in a story like protagonist, sidekick, love interest, villian, rival, comic relief, mentor, etc. Of course, the problem there for me is it is never clear a game like that needs a lot of rules.

A game that is based on a particular setting will want classes that promote the sort of roles seen in the setting. For example, a 'Star Wars' game will want Jedi, Bounty Hunters, Smugglers, Pilots, Droids, etc. A 'Lord of the Rings' game will want Hobbits, Dwarves, Sindar, Rohirrim, Numenoreans, etc. and perhaps 'professions' like burgler, ranger, scout, rider, soldier, sage, etc.

Classes can of course serve multiple roles. You might decide for example that Bounty Hunters in addition to having a certain thematic role, also have a tactical role within your game system - perhaps interdiction (that is, they tend to stop other classes from doing their thing freely). If the game is going to spend a significant amount of time out of combat, you might also decide that they have special skills in information gathering and create mechanics around that.

Depending on our core game play, classes could get really far from things like fighters, wizards, clerics, etc. Suppose for example our core gameplay was Monopoly, and we wished to add RPG like elements to the game. Our classes would be defined by the sort of mechanics that we could interact with. For example, we might have a Well-Heeled class that started off with more money, or an Entrepreneur class that earned more money for each trip around the board, or a Rascal class that paid less rent, or a Traveller class that could reroll dice, a Politician that collected taxes from everyone on the board each time around, or whatever. Our classes might not look like the fixed progressions of D&D. Instead, since the core game play is fairly simple, they might be defined solely by starting skills and/or maximum skill progressions.

In an RPG, I feel that the optimal number of classes is somewhere between 3 and 15. However many that there are, they should be space filling - there should be no character concievable in the setting that can't be based on a class. They should also each be as broad, so that each encompass a very great many possible characters. Indeed, I think each class should be so broad that you could not easily guess the characters class from a description. You know you are misdesigning your classes when every character has the same traits, features, abilities, personality, and equipment. Yet, each class should not overlap with its neighboring classes, but merely nudge gently up to them to make sure nothing can fit in the cracks. Each class should have a definable role and purpose, and its own area where it excells.

I very much dislike mechanical variaty for its own sake. Whenever you are tempted to add some new mechanic to describe something, or some new variant, first consider if there is a way to unify the mechanic with existing ideas. I like Pathfinder, but books like Ultimate Combat really needed a rules editor. Pathfinder is the poster child for mechanical variation for its own sake (inherited from 3.5 edition, which had the same problem). I think the main attraction to mechanical variation is that all the rules can be extensions from existing rules. In this way, you can keep printing books without having to go back and revise previous ones. It's practical, but its poor planning in a game system IMO.

The fewer classes you have, the more flexible your class building mechanics have to be, so that you begin to approach closer and closer to point buy. Indeed, most of your mechanics are probably like pointbuy at this point, mix and matching from long lists of purchasable benefits bought using limited resources acquired as you level up.

 

[MichaelSomething]

So I'm primarily interested in class design and specific classes in mmo's.
Basically I want to know:
5) so what else is there to read/research/learn about class-design and class system in video games? ?

Play Team Fortress 2, seriously. It's a first person shooter, but it's class base and all the classes play differently. There's even a healer! If you can't though, consider reading the Team Fortress 2 wiki for helpful class comparisons, like this one.

 

[steenan]

There are three main reasons for using classes (or something similar) in a RPG game: tactical roles, genre roles and story roles.

Tactical roles are simple. You want the game to challenge player skills with some kind of challenge (usually, but not necessarily, combat) and you want to focus on teamwork, so you limit characters in such a way that each of them may shine in some situations, but in general they're much better together than taken separately.
For this, you need some measure of balance, niche protection and synergistic abilities.

Using classes in your design helps in niche protection and simplifies designing synergies that are good but not too good (do not allow for balance-wracking combos).

When you design classes in this paradigm, you should begin with deciding what a party as a whole should be able to do and then divide the abilities into packages in such a way that they fit thematically within each package and that they have much more synergies between package than inside them. This way, you make sure that characters need each other to be efficient and nobody is overshadowing the rest.

Genre roles are archetypes; types of characters that are typical and distinguishing for given genre. When you design a RPG based on a genre, you want to have these character types in play.

Class design based on genre roles is a little harder than one based on tactical roles. Genres are shaped by books and movies - media that are not interactive and that have no need for balance between characters. When you translate them to RPGs, you must make sure that spotlight will be shared fairly and nobody will be demoted to a secondary character. And you must do it without loosing whatever makes the genre archetypes what they are.

When using this approach, you start by reading several books and/or watching several movies from your selected genre and taking notes on their main and secondary characters - what they do, what they don't, what they do only in crucial scenes (divulging dark or painful secrets, showing previously unknown weaknesses or heroically overcoming previously known ones etc.), what they can't do even when it would be really useful. Then you design mechanics that focuses on these traits.

Story roles are used only in some indie games, because they only have meaning in a game focused enough that you know in advance what kind of story it creates (though not what exact story). Such games direct play into interesting conflicts from the very beginning - and to do it they need characters that have appropriate kinds of relations (in the party, with NPCs and with various events in the setting) and that are able to push the story in appropriate directions.

When using this approach, you start by deciding what kind of story you want to create with your game. Then you analyze what types of characters will have skills and motivations to push the story in the direction you aim for. You build the classes to create fruitful tension between PCs, without making them enemies. And you require each player to choose a different class.



No matter which approach to class design (or what mixture of them) you follow, there are some things to remember:
- Classes should always represent something significant in fiction - either who the characters are or what they do in a story. If people take a genre-appropriate character and can't decide what class he or she is, it's a sign of poor design. This also means that you should describe your intended genre and/or setting well enough that they see which characters fit and which don't.
- Use classes when you want to push characters into archetypes; don't use them if you aim for flexibility. You must be ready to answer a question like "And how should I build <some character concept>?" with "You don't play this kind of character in this game". A class based system with flexible multiclassing may be fun for optimizers, but it only makes designer's work harder, having most disadvantages of a pure class system and few of its advantages.
- Make sure that all classes are able to have dramatic impact in adventures you design your game for. This includes, but is not limited to, spotlight balance, numerical balance and all classes having meaningful ties with the setting (NPCs, organizations, places, events).

 

[Neonchameleon]

So I'm primarily interested in class design and specific classes in mmo's.
Basically I want to know:
1) How do devs create classes?

They make up some they think would (a) be cool, (b) fit the game and (c) not fit any existing class. At least that's how it's meant to work.

How do they think of them and their skills and calculate formulas and decide on which mechanics to implement and various roles?

This is incredibly situational. What's your game about? And it's a mix of eyeballing, playtesting, and formulas to fit the game's intended playstyle.

2) We're used to the warriors clerics rogues mages archetypes. Are there any like crafting only rpgs? What classes would be present in those rpgs? What other class-based games/genre can there be?

City of Heroes has on Hero side Tank, Scrapper (tough melee DPS), Blaster (squishy ranged DPS), Defender (Buffer/ranged DPS), Controller, and Kheldian (Formdancer/shifts from tank to ranged DPS and back). Villainside it has Controller and Blaster variants, Brute (Tank/scrapper hybrid), Hunter (Assassin with stealth skills - weak melee DPS when not cloaked but an impressive alpha strike), Mastermind (Pets), and Arachnos (Defender variant).

Leverage (based on the con/heist show) has classes of Grifter, Hitter, Hacker, Mastermind, Thief. Notably it's a show about rogues and grifter, hacker, and thief would all be part of the rogue heading under a D&D scheme but within the bounds of a game about long cons it makes sense to split them up.

3) What else is there to look at regarding class/character design?

How they fit together. What they do. How they approach the world.

4) Can every set of roles or individual things be associated to rogues warriors mages and clerics in some way? Like for example phoenix wright.
Both in video games and in the real world? Are there sets that don't?

Mages and Clerics are spectacularly broad classes. They both can excuse anything unless you start limiting magic.

On the other hand, just using 4e classes, the Warlord is none of the above. You need to really squash a wire-fu monk to fit it into any orthodox class. Summoners are a problem case. Shapeshifters can be warriors or rogues depending how they are handled and what they shift into. And where do you fit bards?

5) so what else is there to read/research/learn about class-design and class system in video games?

I'd start with Sirlin's "Playing to Win" for generic game design, and for RPGs some of Ron Edwards essays (weed them - he says a lot of interesting things but really overbuilds his cases) and Robin's Laws of good Gamesmastering paying particular attention to player types - and how you satisfy a mix of types.

6) how do you differentiate between mages and other classes?

Give magic rules. The more explicit and constraining the better.

How exactly do you figure out if something fits in the rogue/warrior category?

Conceptually. Does it fit what you want a rogue or warrior to be able to do?

Do you look at everything including stats attributes AND role?

Role and fluff.

And is it also true that stats and attributes generally define the role?

Common. But not generally true.

isn't the goal of the game and the available mechanics the primary determining factor of the classes setup?

Yes.

then again I'm only referring to the roles. So would the traditional archetypes rogues warriors clerics and mages still be applicable in other genres.

Not without magic. Although as I've mentioned Leverage uses Hitter, Hacker, Grifter, Mastermind, Thief. And there's nothing wrong with the 4e generic versions of Striker, Defender, Leader, Controller.