The shortbow - what is it good for?

[Yair]

The shortbow is the longbow's pathetic little sister that no one wants to pick for the game. Both are martial ranged weapons, no difference. The shortbow does less damage, and has shorter range. It even weighs nearly the same, so that's no difference.

It is a bit cheaper, so at low levels may see some use. A longbow also can't be used from horseback, but a composite longbow can.

I am left to conclue only misers use a shortbow.

What I'm looking for is to change the rules to make longbows less of an obvious choice. I want to make shortbows preferable for mounted warriors and hunting, and longbows less useful.

I suggest the following changes:
* Longbows become Exotic, not Martial, weapons.
* Composite longbows cannot be used from horseback.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Rogues only get proficiency in Shortbow but not Longbow - quite often see them using that weapon?


I think changing Composite longbows to be non usable on horseback works. Although rather than saying 'can't' my inclination is to lean towards a hefty penalty instead. -4 or so, perhaps?

What would you do about elves and their racial longbow proficiency? Make it a martial weapon for them?

My personal bugbear is that bows are so much better than any other ranged weapon. Only other one I find useful is slings - as you skirt the whole variable strength issue...

 

[Yair]

Rogues only get proficiency in Shortbow but not Longbow - quite often see them using that weapon?


I think changing Composite longbows to be non usable on horseback works. Although rather than saying 'can't' my inclination is to lean towards a hefty penalty instead. -4 or so, perhaps?

What would you do about elves and their racial longbow proficiency? Make it a martial weapon for them?

My personal bugbear is that bows are so much better than any other ranged weapon. Only other one I find useful is slings - as you skirt the whole variable strength issue...

I'm actually thinking about this for an Iron Heroes game, so rogues and elves aren't much of an issue. But let's keep this D&D.

I don't like that weapon proficiency is what limits a rogue to a shortbow, and at any rate it doesn't address the main problem.
Elves should either be left with only the shortbow proficiency or have the longbow as a racial familiarity thingie. Personally, I'd prefer to just give them a shortbow. I think elves sniping with shortbows is the image here, not elves wielding gigantic longbows. (The shortness of the real-world composite longbows blurs these images, but I'd prefer to keep things extreme and have long bows be BIG.)

I can see a -4 penalty instead of a "can't" for firing a longbow from horseback, but I think a "can't" is better - just like you need two hands to use a longbow, so too you need to set it on the ground before you and draw it parallel to your body, things you just can't do on horseback.




I agree that other weapons are not sufficiently effective compared to bows. Making the longbow an exotic weapon removed their damage a little but, but the real problem is their rate of fire at high levels, and the ability to add Strength to damage. I think allowing "composite" light and heavy crossbows (but not repeating crossbows) can help with the Strength issue; such crossbows could probably not be cocked at all by someone of lower strength. With this change, a light crossbow with Rapid Shot is nearly like a longbow with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (falling a bit short in range), as it should be.
(Edit: A simple weapon + feat should be about the same as an exotic weapon since both can be had by any character via a single feat. The light crossbow can be used from horseback and the longbow has a longer range, otherwise their stats are about the same - 1d8 damage, and 20/x3 or 19-20/x2 critical.)

A heavy crossbow is still somewhat problematic (perhaps an additional feat can justify lowering the loading time to a free action?).

Repeating crossbows are also a problem. I think I would allow Rapid Reload to shorten their loading time much like heavy crossbows, resolving the rate-of-fire issue in this way. I don't think adding the Strength bonus makes sense, however.

 

[Felix]

A longbow also can't be used from horseback, but a composite longbow can.

This is the problem. Just make comp longbows unusable from horseback and you have a niche for the shortbow: mounted archers.

It's not as if the Mongols didn't ravage most of Asia and Europe with the things.

 

[evilbob]

One idea we used in a campaign once (can't remember what book it came from) that helped balance longbows vs. shortbows was that a longbow basically took a full-round action to "draw." This represented the fact that you cannot just "carry around" a stringed longbow (for one, it's too big), and that you would pretty much have to string the thing before you could use it. Shortbows, by constrast, were drawn like a normal weapon and could be "quickdrawn" if you had the feat.

However, I would personally suggest beefing the shortbow over nerfing the longbow; the longbow seems quite balanced and if anything the shortbow needs some help.

Then again, there are a slew of crappy weapons that no one would ever use and have basically zero tactical advantage anyway, so why really worry about it - that's just the way the equipment list is.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I do agree with your thinking - there's problems with the other weapons. Rate of fire for crossbows, magical/cost issues for thrown weapons and so on.


I thought about mighty crossbows as well. My thinking was an increasing load time if you were below the strength bonus. Represent cranking the things up as you can't pull the cord back. The issue that bothered me was they'd make lethal opening weapons. Reload out of combat - make that first shot really vicious. Then just ignore them. Kind of sets a whole party using a weapon that the strongest guy can draw.

Another big problem with light crossbows is that move action to reload them. Soon as someone can fire more than once a round, they don't want to be doing that?


Did consider having magical thrown weapons done differently. You'd wear some kind of magical gizmo that temporarily enchanted weapons as you threw them. Puts them on a par with other stuff IMO?


However, when I bought up the subject with the people in my game and they wern't really fussed, so figured I'd just ingore the whole thing and everyone would keep using composite longbows (except for NPCs!). I bottle it up and will let it all explode some day.


On the side issue, I don't like 'can't' in DnD, much prefer - penalty so big no normal person could do it... like trying to tumble with a tower shield. Just semantics and personal preferance though.


And another tangent! : Those mongols did have some funny weapons - IIRC, they had some serious range on them? Not sure what... Looked small though. Not a good historian over here!

 

[lukelightning]

This is the problem. Just make comp longbows unusable from horseback and you have a niche for the shortbow: mounted archers.

It's not as if the Mongols didn't ravage most of Asia and Europe with the things.

I know. Composite bows were invented for the very purpose of being used on horseback.

It's not as if many D&D characters fight from horseback, and when they do it's to twink out on lance charging goodness.

 

[ivocaliban]

The shortbow is the longbow's pathetic little sister that no one wants to pick for the game. Both are martial ranged weapons, no difference. The shortbow does less damage, and has shorter range. It even weighs nearly the same, so that's no difference.

It is a bit cheaper, so at low levels may see some use. A longbow also can't be used from horseback, but a composite longbow can.

I am left to conclue only misers use a shortbow.

What I'm looking for is to change the rules to make longbows less of an obvious choice. I want to make shortbows preferable for mounted warriors and hunting, and longbows less useful.

I suggest the following changes:
* Longbows become Exotic, not Martial, weapons.
* Composite longbows cannot be used from horseback.

While I understand your problem, I don't think making longbows exotic weapons is the answer. However, I completely agree with making shortbows the chosen weapon of riders. I wasn't aware that composite longbows could be used from horseback and I've never allowed it (at least, not without a substantial penalty to attack) in my campaigns.

The best way to prove the usefulness of a shortbow is to put your players in areas where longbows get in the way. Having a weapon that's almost as long as you are (or in some cases longer) strapped to your back can often be a hassle. In low tunnels, compact corriders, thick foliage and so forth...provide penalities to those using longbows. Furthermore, longbows are far more likely than shortbows to get tangled in branches, webs, and the like.

By the same token provide certain incentives to those who favor the shortbow. For example, it's conceivable that an unstrung shortbow might be hidden in a thick cloak or even strapped to a leg as part of a disguised makeshift splint...it's almost impossible to hide a longbow on your person.

In most cases, your players will still take their chances with the longbow and you shouldn't hit them over the head with it if they do. You should, however, make it clear that the shortbow is simply more effective in certain environments and situations...and, likewise, that the longbow can be a hinderance in tight spaces.

 

[Bladesong]

Happy Holidays Everyone!

I'll start by saying that I am not an expert on the longbow, but I will tell you what few things I did find out and what we did with it.
Summary: It was not real easy to use (not even a fighter could just pick one up and use it), it made movement difficult, it really was only "effective" at longer than short range, but it was devastating when scores of them were fired together at an approaching army (it was never really meant or used in "one-on-one" combat.
Composite bows seemed to have come later and were much harder to make, and for a time we did not have them available in our games at all.
Anyway, in our games shortbows are readily available and useable as a martial weapon. The longbow (and recently the comp. longbow) was turned into an exotic weapon, the damage increased to 2d6, and it is -2 to hit at close range. You are also limited to normal movement when wielding it (you cannot run).
What this has done is make the longbow available only to someone who wants to be a dedicated archer. I've been runnng one and frankly it has been my favorite character in years.
Elven characters can treat it a marial weapon so elven wizards are limited to shortbows.

 

[dangerous jack]

I'm thinking about making the longbow a martial weapon when used to fire one arrow / round as a full attack action, but exotic if you want to fire multiple arrows / round [Full Attack] or one arrow / round [Standard Action]. Similar to the bastard sword's martial / exotic dual nature.

The low level army of longbowmen in the field won't behave any differently (firing one arrow from a fixed position). The high level fighter that picks up a longbow for the first time will know how to use it, but not to it's full potential.

Thoughts?