The Profession skill?
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Relique du Madde
Adventurer
The profession skill is only used to gauge how well your character is at working in any occupation or their ability to make money by working. It's main use to determine how much wealth you gain at every level.
Aus_Snow
First Post
It depends greatly on the style of game (i.e., of DMing and, to a lesser extent, playing,) the setting; that kind of thing.
As well as a fall-back for income (that's pretty unlikely to come up, for most campaigns, granted) it covers all those little things you'd know and be able to do if you were, say, a soldier, sailor, tinker or tailor. Or whatever else. Or, more to the point, if you had that training. After all, most adventurers are of the profession, um, 'adventurer', no?
Make for excellent background skills, if you're not likely to use them in the campaign proper. In that context, I'd recommend giving out free ranks to each PC, to be placed *only* in a Profession -- or perhaps at least half there, and the rest, if any, in Craft or Knowledge (but not adventuring type ones!)
As well as a fall-back for income (that's pretty unlikely to come up, for most campaigns, granted) it covers all those little things you'd know and be able to do if you were, say, a soldier, sailor, tinker or tailor. Or whatever else. Or, more to the point, if you had that training. After all, most adventurers are of the profession, um, 'adventurer', no?
Make for excellent background skills, if you're not likely to use them in the campaign proper. In that context, I'd recommend giving out free ranks to each PC, to be placed *only* in a Profession -- or perhaps at least half there, and the rest, if any, in Craft or Knowledge (but not adventuring type ones!)
Raven Crowking
First Post
Consider Pirates of the Carribean. Orlando Bloom's character is a blacksmith. When he fights Captain Jack Sparrow in the smithy, his Profession [Blacksmith] skill gives him an edge. Later, when he needs to break Jack free from the gaol, he again relies upon his Profession [Blacksmith] skill.
Like most things, how useful a skill is depends largely upon the imagination(s) of the user(s).
RC
Like most things, how useful a skill is depends largely upon the imagination(s) of the user(s).
RC
Aurumvorax
First Post
Mechanically, though, it's useless except for the rare prerequisite (I can't recall any prestige classes that actually do require it). After Gygax left, designers started adding more and more mechanics. It wasn't until 4th Edition that the designers finally realized "Hey, nobody's going to put limited resources in a non-combat area while playing a game heavily revolving around combat." For flavor purposes I usually give away free skill points equal to 1 + int mod (minimum one) to a profession of the player's choice provided it isn't being used as a prereq.
Raven Crowking
First Post
Mechanically, anything is useless unless the players and GM seek out ways to make it mechanically useful. A skill required for a prestige class is mechanically useless (in that respect) if one has no desire to take that class. Certainly, the uses of Profession are less obvious than, say, Climb, but that does not make the skill mechanically useless.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
My issue with the Profession skill has always been that it overlaps with other skills. If all it gets you is a +2 synergy bonus, it is awesome for powergamer to squeeze his extra bonus out of it, but actually using the skill itself is difficult.
The standard case is "Profession (Sailor)". Shouldn't I know stuff about knots and hence have some benefit with Use Rope?
On the other hand, if I have Use Rope, Swim, Knowledge (Nature) and Balance, shouldn't I be decent sailor material?
I think it would make more sense to create a list of Profession and list skills that might be linked to it. You can then create a feat that gives bonus ranks or skill bonuses to the skills of a Profession. In d20 Modern, you can directly use the rules for occupation. Of course, profession works differently there anyway.
A 3.x compatible write-up might be:
Professions
A profession consists of a list of linked skills and an ability score representing your general ability in the profession.
You can use any of the skills listed for the profession or any of the abilities listed for it to earn money. The result equals the number of silver pieces you earn each week.
Profession - Sailor:
Ability Score: Dexterity
- Balance
- Knowledge (Nature)
- Use Rope
- Swim
Profession (Baker)
Ability Score: Wisdom
- Alchemy (if we assume it's not just magical application of chemicals)
- Diplomacy
- Knowledge (Nature)
Profession (Blacksmith)
Ability Score: Strength
- Diplomacy
- Handle Animal
- Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)
Feat:
Professional Training
Benefit: You gain 6 skill points to distribute among the skills of one of your chosen professions, and a +2 bonus to all checks made to determine how much money you earn when working in that profession.
In 4E (which lacks Craft and Profession skills), I tend to approach it using existing skills and explain how they apply to it. Blacksmithing for example could involve:
- Athletics (or generally strength, having the strength and controlling it well enough)
- Endurance (for doing it all day)
- History (the techniques you use have been developed in the past. Crafting an axe according to the ancient traditions taught to the first Dwarves by Moradin himself.)
The standard case is "Profession (Sailor)". Shouldn't I know stuff about knots and hence have some benefit with Use Rope?
On the other hand, if I have Use Rope, Swim, Knowledge (Nature) and Balance, shouldn't I be decent sailor material?
I think it would make more sense to create a list of Profession and list skills that might be linked to it. You can then create a feat that gives bonus ranks or skill bonuses to the skills of a Profession. In d20 Modern, you can directly use the rules for occupation. Of course, profession works differently there anyway.
A 3.x compatible write-up might be:
Professions
A profession consists of a list of linked skills and an ability score representing your general ability in the profession.
You can use any of the skills listed for the profession or any of the abilities listed for it to earn money. The result equals the number of silver pieces you earn each week.
Profession - Sailor:
Ability Score: Dexterity
- Balance
- Knowledge (Nature)
- Use Rope
- Swim
Profession (Baker)
Ability Score: Wisdom
- Alchemy (if we assume it's not just magical application of chemicals)
- Diplomacy
- Knowledge (Nature)
Profession (Blacksmith)
Ability Score: Strength
- Diplomacy
- Handle Animal
- Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)
Feat:
Professional Training
Benefit: You gain 6 skill points to distribute among the skills of one of your chosen professions, and a +2 bonus to all checks made to determine how much money you earn when working in that profession.
In 4E (which lacks Craft and Profession skills), I tend to approach it using existing skills and explain how they apply to it. Blacksmithing for example could involve:
- Athletics (or generally strength, having the strength and controlling it well enough)
- Endurance (for doing it all day)
- History (the techniques you use have been developed in the past. Crafting an axe according to the ancient traditions taught to the first Dwarves by Moradin himself.)
Um..no.
From word on high, Orlando Bloom's character is the BEST swordsmen in the world (he just also happens to be a blacksmith). That's why he was able to beat Jack.
Jack is only the 3rd best swordsman in the world (with Barbossa and Norrington tied for 2nd).
Furthermore, the definition of the profession skill just says that the ranks define how well you can make money at that skill and not how well you ARE at that skill. That, if anything, would be defined by CRAFT.
Celebrim
Legend
I struggled heavily with the profession skill through all of 3.0. My biggest problem with it wasn't that it was useless. The biggest problem I had with the profession skill was that it seemed that for most tasks it was redundant. For example, just what did Profession (Lawyer) cover that wasn't covered by other skills like Diplomacy and Knowledge (Law), and why did Profession (Lawyer) determine your income if the actual practice of being a lawyer was determined by a combination of success in more concrete and general skills.
Other cases just seemed like bad editting. For example, Profession (Cook) clearly should have been Craft (Cooking), as cooking produced a tangible good. Of course, the Craft rules also sucked, but that's a different topic. Craft at least had clear uses.
What I had ruled through pretty much all of 3rd edition was that Profession could be used in place of any skill provided that it was used in the narrow advancement of your profession. For example, you could use Diplomacy to argue a case in court, but you could also use Profession (Lawyer) in place of diplomacy to argue a case in court. That solved Profession's lack of usefulness, but it never felt particularly elegant.
Through much of 3.0, whenever someone claimed that the solution to the profession skill was to simply drop it, I would point out that there were some things that the Profession skill covered that weren't covered by any other skill. The classic example of this was the ability to paddle a canoe or handle a ship. Profession (Boating), Profession (Sailor), Profession (Navigator), and Profession (Astrologer) seemed to cover skill sets no other skill covered, in some cases in part and in some cases in whole. However, when it was leaked that 4e would drop the profession skill, I reevaluated my position (back when I was somewhat hopeful about 4e and assumed that the changes would be ones I would welcome). I set about listing all the skills that I didn't think were covered elsewhere and were applicable to an action hero, and to my surprise came up with basically only the above short list. I then decided that the best solution was to make the few skill sets not covered elsewhere there own explicit skills. So, Profession (Boating) became Boating, Profession (Navigator) was folded into Intuit Direction and became the Navigation skill, and so forth.
That would be my recommended path at present.
Raven Crowking
First Post
Yes, Orlando Bloom's character is a great swordsman. But he also knows when to use a makeshift weapon, and he also knows how to use the smithy to his advantage. One can easily imagine a game where the following exchange occurs:
Watching that scene, there is no way that his knowledge of the smithy didn't directly contribute to the fight. Just as Jack's knowledge of ships directly contributed to their next fight, when he swung the boom and knocked Orlando Bloom off the deck. I'm fairly certain that this was intentional, or do you think that such a parallel came about by accident?
In any event, any rendition of the scene as game play, wherein the rendition is faithful to what happens on screen, is going to include a good many skill checks. Some of them should be Profession skill checks, IMHO, just as Jack Sparrow ("That's Captain Jack Sparrow") makes use of his Profession [Sailor] to deal with Orlando Bloom once they have stolen a ship.
Profession skills (in 3.5) include "You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems." So long as a task involves common problems, daily tasks, or the tools of your profession, the skill is appropriate.
Craft specifically allows the creation of items.
To run a successful business should require both the Craft and Profession skills. Certainly, Orlando Bloom has both of these skills in PotC, whereas Captain Jack has only Profession AFAICT.
RC
OB: OK, I know this smithy like the back of my hand. If Jack thinks he's going to escape, he's got another thing coming. Is there any way I can prevent him from going out the door, from where I am?
GM: You know where a pin would hold the door shut, but you'd have to be at the door to do it.
OB: What if I throw my sword?
GM: Not a standard useage, so your sword would become a makeshift, say, spear. And you don't have any ranks in Spear Throwing. Let's call it AC 15.
OB: That's okay, because I'm Skilled at Arms, I don't take a penalty, either. Can I gamble that I know well enough where I need to hit to increase my accuracy? I'm willing to try for a DC 20 Profession [Blacksmith] check, to increase my attack roll by +4.
GM: That sounds fair; roll 'em!
OB: (Rolls dice). 26! Dang. I should have gambled for another +2! (Rolls attack roll) A 10. But with my +4, and with my Dexterity bonus, I make it easily.
GM: Right. Jack can't get through the door. But, now, you have no weapon, as he is swift to point out. And, once again, you are between him and his way out.
OB: I look around. Can I reach the hot poker? Yes? Good. I grab it as a Reaction, using it as a makeshift sword to fight fully defensively, using my Fencing skill.
GM: The hot poker gives Jack a moment's pause....
OB: Good. Maybe I can Intimidate him with it.
GM: ......but he sighs, and grins, and comes at you with his sword. New round; roll initiative.
etc.
GM: You know where a pin would hold the door shut, but you'd have to be at the door to do it.
OB: What if I throw my sword?
GM: Not a standard useage, so your sword would become a makeshift, say, spear. And you don't have any ranks in Spear Throwing. Let's call it AC 15.
OB: That's okay, because I'm Skilled at Arms, I don't take a penalty, either. Can I gamble that I know well enough where I need to hit to increase my accuracy? I'm willing to try for a DC 20 Profession [Blacksmith] check, to increase my attack roll by +4.
GM: That sounds fair; roll 'em!
OB: (Rolls dice). 26! Dang. I should have gambled for another +2! (Rolls attack roll) A 10. But with my +4, and with my Dexterity bonus, I make it easily.
GM: Right. Jack can't get through the door. But, now, you have no weapon, as he is swift to point out. And, once again, you are between him and his way out.
OB: I look around. Can I reach the hot poker? Yes? Good. I grab it as a Reaction, using it as a makeshift sword to fight fully defensively, using my Fencing skill.
GM: The hot poker gives Jack a moment's pause....
OB: Good. Maybe I can Intimidate him with it.
GM: ......but he sighs, and grins, and comes at you with his sword. New round; roll initiative.
etc.
Watching that scene, there is no way that his knowledge of the smithy didn't directly contribute to the fight. Just as Jack's knowledge of ships directly contributed to their next fight, when he swung the boom and knocked Orlando Bloom off the deck. I'm fairly certain that this was intentional, or do you think that such a parallel came about by accident?
In any event, any rendition of the scene as game play, wherein the rendition is faithful to what happens on screen, is going to include a good many skill checks. Some of them should be Profession skill checks, IMHO, just as Jack Sparrow ("That's Captain Jack Sparrow") makes use of his Profession [Sailor] to deal with Orlando Bloom once they have stolen a ship.
Profession skills (in 3.5) include "You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems." So long as a task involves common problems, daily tasks, or the tools of your profession, the skill is appropriate.
Craft specifically allows the creation of items.
To run a successful business should require both the Craft and Profession skills. Certainly, Orlando Bloom has both of these skills in PotC, whereas Captain Jack has only Profession AFAICT.
RC
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