D&D General Deleted

[Ankiseth the Steadfast]

In the past year or so, I have learned a lot about medieval history that I didn't know before. I'd commonly heard and spouted the phrase that D&D isn't really medieval, it's its own thing more similar to the Renaissance but is filled with anachronisms and stuff of its own inventions (obviously all the magical stuff, but also studded leather armor and similar pseudo-historical stuff). This is accurate, but I didn't understand many of the specifics aside from a few points (Rapiers, Plate Armor, etc) until recently. A lot of D&D is inspired by modern fantasy that is in turn based on aspects of the middle ages or stories from them (Mostly through Tolkien. A ton of D&D was inspired by Tolkien, who was in turn inspired by stories from the middle ages like Beowulf, Arthurian Legend, and Norse Mythology.) That is not to say that all of D&D is based on the middle ages or stories from it, there is stuff stolen from a ton of cultures and stories with varying degrees of accuracy, and of course stuff of Gygaxian invention (mimics, owlbears, displacer beasts, etc).

There is one aspect of D&D that is undoubtedly based on an aspect of the middle ages, and I think causes some issues. Paladins are undoubtedly based on stories of medieval knights, those of Arthurian Legend and stories of Charlemagne's paladins, where they get their name. While Arthurian legend as we know them today was based on earlier Brythonic stories, a major aspect of them, the stories of knights on quests traveling around killing monsters, was added later on. Medieval knights did not go on quests. Knights were the lowest form of nobility and acted as law enforcement and guards for more powerful nobles. Knights wouldn't wander the countryside on quests searching for ancient artifacts and killing dangerous beasts. They had a jobs, and no noble would just let their knights shirk their duties to explore. The closest medieval analogue to the stories of Arthurian knights going on holy quests were the Crusades, which the stories were inspired by.

Furthermore, the common image of a D&D paladin, a sword-and-board holy knight with a holy symbol on their shield is obviously based on the common image of the Knights Templar with the cross on their shield.

This type of depiction of a paladin
View attachment 365307
was obviously inspired by this type of image
View attachment 365308
(Not to mention that the medieval chivalric stories of Charlemagne's paladins tell tales of them fighting against Andalusian Muslims.)

The D&D paladin is rooted in the Crusades, stories based off the Crusades (Arthurian Knights) and other medieval stories about chivalric knights fighting Muslims. The "lawful good holy warriors" of D&D are based off of the knights of the middle ages that killed thousands of innocent people.

Paladins are a Christian power fantasy rooted in one of the most horrific series of wars of the Middle Ages. Since I've learned more about the Crusades and made this connection, Paladins just feel different. Ickier, for the lack of a better word. They don't feel the same as back when I was a teenager playing make believe with fantasy monsters. Knowing about the atrocities that inspired them and their representation throughout D&D history as holy warriors of good that must purge the evil just feels gross now. I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but this thread is largely about how learning about the medieval roots of paladins has sort of ruined them for me. I'm not saying that they should be removed from the game. I think that Paladins can be fixed for me if they change enough, it may require a new name and broadening/changing their identity. If they didn't borrow as much of their identity from medieval knights, it wouldn't be as much as a problem. The Oath of Heroism for example, which is more inspired by demigod heroes of Greek mythology don't have as much of the gross Crusader theme to them.

So, any suggestions? How can you have a holy warrior knight-in-shining-armor class without this connection to the Crusades and similar real world atrocities? Is the problem mainly with the paladin, or Gygax's version of always-evil races? How might Paladins be changed to make them feel less gross.

Keep in mind that this is a (+) thread. The last time I made a thread similar to this one, it got bogged down by posters telling me that the problem I was bringing up didn't exist and accusing me of being overly sensitive. If you disagree with the premise of the thread, move along. Make your own thread if you like. If threadcrapping/trolling occurs, it will of course be reported.

Coincidentally I had just had the same thoughts today.
Personally I run my systems with a more consequence based world so characters such as paladins are usually enforcers for powers structures such that need unquestioning martial devotees such as paladins.

I think there are a lot of ways to explore paladins and utilize them for storytelling.
Taking a step back and examining them in such a way is a good approach I feel.
Just wanted you to know I think critical thought about what exactly a class means and how they function is appreciated.

 

[Bedrockgames]

With Galahad, Percival, and maybe Bors a case could be made that they fit the paladin archetype. In various tellings, those were the knights that found the grail. Most of the other knights were significantly flawed, Gawain being no exception.

That said, I agree there is a strong case to be made that the paladin is based more on the romanticized Arthurian knights that have been popularized in books and movies. To the best of my knowledge, Gygax was more a consumer of pop culture than a history buff, but i never had the opportunity to meet the man, nor have I extensively dissected his writings.

If official D&D product had not used heavily crusader inspired art, this would probably be a moot point. One can still point out how easily the paladin can be adapted to Mesoamerican, Indian, Maori, or a dozen other cultures, but until that type of art replaces the templaresque standard we will have some issues to work through.

I think the main influence for the Paladin was Three Hearts and Three Lions

 

[Marandahir]

King David of the Bible.
Pharaohs and their champions like Ramses I in his earlier career.
Ishtar in Red River (magic warrior queen literally believed to be the queen goddess made flesh).
Sacred Samurai.
Exorcists.
Sun Wukong / Son Goku, entasked by the Buddha to use his magical powers to protect a Monk/Priest on his Journey to the West.
An Warrior with visions of an Orisha in their sleep guiding their hand and action.

Or lean heavily into the Sacred Oath and their tenants. A LOT of cultures have such tenants, and you're a guardian of acting according to cultural law.

 

[Hussar]

I think the main influence for the Paladin was Three Hearts and Three Lions

But that then begs the question of what were Anderson’s inspirations? It’s not like he wrote the story in a vacuum. And at a quick glance, I think you can draw some pretty straight lines between European crusader knight concepts and Three Hearts and Three Lions.

 

[Nixeu]

Okay, I can't be asked to dig through everything here to see if this had been pointed out, but at least part of the very premise of this thread is unfounded. The questing knight errant archetype doesn't seem to have been based on the Crusades. I can't find any scholarly research saying as much. If anyone can show me some, I'd love to see it.

But, more than likely, the whole thing actually springs from how the authors of that time tried to frame the past as being just like their present. They thought that chivery and knightly honor had always existed throughout time, just as it existed in their time (or so they liked to think), in that same form. This anachronism is much more apparent in the Matter of Rome than the Matter of Britain (Arthurian tales) or the Matter of France (Roland's crew). They literally had Alexander the Great running a feudal kingdom and Aeneas dressing up in courtly wear from their time period.

That said...the same is actually true of Arthurian tales. Britain wasn't a feudal nation in 500 AD, during the Saxon invasions. Feudalism and knights didn't exist yet. Yes, the tales of the most famous group of fictional knights were born purely because people couldn't fathom that past civilizations were any different from their own idealized version of theirs. So they just overlaid their culture over the existing folklore. That's is probably also why their adventures make no sense for knights to be going in, and why the knight-errant archetype was born in the first place. So, if that's your concern, you can lay that to rest.

On a similar note, that's also where the focus on the piety of the knights is coming from. It's not a Crusades thing, it's them engaging in borderline historical revisionism again, instilling their social ideals into their "historical fiction". The Christians did this pretty much every time they appropriated the myths of another culture. Which is certainly problematic, but not in ways that poison the whole Paladin class.

Mind you, I don't know what was going through Gygax's head when he made up the Paladin, and it's entirely possible some parts of the Crusades got stuck in there. And the aesthetics are a whole other concern. But when it comes to the mythological and medieval literary foundation? Again, so far as I'm aware, it's not inspired by the Crusades or the horrors associated with them. Maybe some of the same arrogant attitudes, but that's, again, a different conversation.

Edit: To better tie this back into the topic, I'll add that I rather hope this puts the whole thing in a different light, historically speaking. Or at least makes it clear that the connection between the Quest for the Grail and the Crusades is a lot less clear-cut than it seems. It seems to just be an assumption that holy warriors with a cause are crusaders, which is an...interesting assumption, even just looking at European mythology and folklore. Or heck, even the huge body of Christian literature that predates the Crusades with similar themes, like the legends which surround the various Catholic saints.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Welcome to the site @Nixeu